redbrunja | Cheer Up, Emo Kid (Or, It's A Family Affair)

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Cheer Up, Emo Kid (Or, It's A Family Affair)

I love it when I'm wondering about some element of a story - in this case, who polices Konoha - and I get an answer almost right away.

I think the idea of Sasuke's clan being the ones who were supposed to police the town and the other ninjas was nicely apropos, and surprisingly enough, I now have a lot of sympathy for Sasuke.

He's still making blindingly bad decisions, and ignoring all the ropes people are throwing him, but I adored how you could see Sasuke's father screwing up Itachi who screws up Sasuke, who goes on to think that his only real option for defeating his brother is to join Orchimaru.

(And he might not be wrong - if you set aside all moral and emotional considerations, chasing after the power being offered him is a clever move. It's not smart, but it's clever. Sasuke just has no fucking idea of what he's losing by doing so.)

Also, Sasuke learning how to make those fireballs, with his puffed out cheeks and little flash of belly button was just about the most adorable thing ever.

The Naruto vs Sasuke fight was very cool, and I loved the headband motif. Sasuke's line about being "more special than you" almost made me do a spit take, it was so hilariously lol-tastic.

I know how many slashers adore Sasuke/Naruto, and I usually don't use this argument, because I'm honest enough to know that if the genders were different, say if Gojyo was a girl, I'd be over Gojyo/Hakkai like white on rice, but this time, I have to:

Why does everything reduce to sex?

By which I mean, I kind of feel that if you watched that fight between Sasuke and Naruto and thought that the subtext was "I wanna get into his pants," I think you missed the point.

Look at the way that the characters interact: when they're interested in someone romantically, they are not subtle about it at all. We all know that Sakura is pinning after Sasuke, and Naruto is pinning after Sakura, and Hinata is pinning after Naruto, and in the case of the first two, they are fucking BLATANT about their affections.

There is no room for confusion about that. And when Sakura starts to think fondly of and respect Naruto, she treats him like a brother or friend - none of the blushing, subservant way she treats Sasuke.

We don't know how Sasuke acts when he is actually is crushing on someone, but look at how he acts with his brother: He wants attention, wants to be as good as/better then, and then he wants to kill his brother.

That is almost the same emotional arc as Sasuke's relationship with Naruto, with the exception that Naruto is the one striving for attention and to be as good as/better than, and Sasuke is the one not giving him attention.

My point is, Sasuke's main relationship are all fraternal, and Naruto explicitly labels his relationship with Sasuke in familial terms. (And wondering if being with Iruka was like being with a father made me wibble.)

In other news, I loved Temari's conversation with Shikamaru in the hospital (though I wish either Neji or Choiji or Kiba would have died, simply because everyone making it out alive stretched my sense of credibility.) Poor Shikimaru, getting tag-teamed by both is father and ~~his girlfriend~~ Temari. I love how cold and ruthless she is, and I loved Nara-senior's comment about how you have to stick around to keep your friends safe.

Seeing Sakura come to Tsunade and ask for training was fantastic, as was Tsunade's conversation about the skills medic-nins have to have but I have to say, I was almost nauseous when I saw Sakua healing the fish. I know that l soon every female ninja sans Temari is going to be getting medic training, which makes me go, 'way the hell to ruin any chance of letting Sakura be special.' Sure, she ends up all badass from her training, but the fact that every other girl is going to be doing the same thing takes away any value. It would be completely different if they were picking medics based on, you know, personality or skill, but the mangaka totally isn't. I mean, Ino? I love the girl, but she (and Shikamaru) are the worst people to work in medicine in the whole manga. What about Choiji or Shino or Rock Lee? (Okay, he can't do the medical techniques so he's out, but you get my point, right?) The idea that Ino could be more valuable in medicine than in information gathering is ludicrous.

*sigh*

End rant.

So... Kakashi gaiden.

wee!Kakashi: most adorable thing ever Y/Y?

That was fantastic backstory for him.

And I have to say, Obito, Kakashi must have really liked you, because you're whole, 'Your father was a hero' *two panels pass* 'Your father was even lower scum!' was... not an argument that I would have listened to.

But I adore the whole 'sharingan as a gift' and when Kakashi is crying out of just that eye.

I totally need a wee!Kakashi icon.

Also, when do we learn that Kakashi was in ANBU and how Rin died? Because what Kakashi was wearing sort-of looked like an ANBU uniform, but I didn't see a tatto and it was never mentioned, but I thought this was around the time he was being sent out on assassination missions? Or was that after he mastered his chidori?

Speaking of, Sasuke has three 'comets' in his eye and Kakshi has two, correct? And do you think the Sharigan 'remembers' things it has learned? By which I mean, if it was passed on, does it/new person use jujitsu that had been memorized before, or does the new person have to relearn everything?

So now I'm on to Shippuuden! Where Sakura wears awesome boots and rivals Toph for earthbending, Temari is a jounin and Kakashi continues to be awesome!

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*laughs* Good old Sasuke-in-a-bucket. Every time I feel frustrated with that boy, I just remember how big that thing was, and how much it got thrown, dropped, turned upside-down, played catch with, bounced off trees, etc., during that arc...

...and I smile. ^_^ No wonder he came out black and blue. Sasuke, no matter how big of a jerk you may ever be, I am confident you will always be the world champion of inadvertently and appropriately punishing yourself.

Incidentally, yeah, I do agree with you about the frustrating tendency of all relationships to be reduced to sex by fans. Example: I can't look at Edward/Alphonse fanwork without seriously wanting to smack something, not simply because incest squicks me (squick just prompts an eyeroll and a back button), but because that relationship is so complex, so fascinating, so codependent and interesting and messed up and wonderful, and introducing sex into the equation just feels cheapening. They're already bound for life. They'd already die for each other. Why do we need to be making with the bedtimes?

There are "officially" at least five kinds of love. (http://www.socyberty.com/Philosophy/All-We-Need-is-Love-Two.82350) In reality there are billions, not to mention many an interesting dynamic that doesn't involve love at all, but this is a good start. Learn 'em, people. >.>;

I generally don’t get slashing in general, but doubly so with Naruto and Sasuke. I mean… their bond as brother’s is such a nice one (especially ‘cause, you know, it’s now broken) that I don’t know why you would make it romantic. But people see what they want to see.

I have to be honest and say I’ve never quite bought the gender switch argument (that if one were a man and the other a woman people other than slashers would find it romantic) simply because the context would then be different. Men don’t talk or act around women the way they talk around other men, and likewise with women. The context of their actions changes, and thus changes the meaning of their actions.

Yes, Temari is awesome, and her dynamic with Shikamaru is interesting.

And yes, it seems kinda weird that Ino becomes a medic nin. If I were to try and defend it (which I really don’t know why I would) I would say that Kishimoto was trying to keep up the rivalry motif with Sakura and Ino.

Kakashi gaiden is so… perfect for Kakashi’s character. I mean, I love how Kakashi really changed as a character from when he was young until now, and how much of Obito kinda lives on in Kakashi. That was the arc where I really finally understood Kakashi as a character, understood just how much his life sucked, and why he doesn’t let it bother him. And no, we never do quite learn about Kakashi’s ANBU time.

The mechanic’s of the sharingan are a mysterious thing, and only become more so over time. I would assume that the sharingan only serves as a sort of lens though, that allows the user to track an opponent’s hand seals and not as a memory bank.

Onward to Shippuuden, where everyone but Kiba has a cooler clothing but is only seen for a handful of pages.

You should watch the fight between Naruto and Sasuke animated. I know that sounds bizarre coming from me, who has repeatedly described the anime as being akin to a horrifying plague, but this is one of the rare instances where it did something right: namely, they hired Norio Matsumoto to animate it. it's gorgeous. In fact, I saw it long before I read Naruto, and it's so superior in the anime that it sort of ruined it for me in the manga.

I think the idea of Sasuke's clan being the ones who were supposed to police the town and the other ninjas was nicely apropos, and surprisingly enough, I now have a lot of sympathy for Sasuke.

have fun with that while it lasts, it gets hit with a retcon bomb a few hundred chapters later.

But I will agree, the one time I've felt anything better than annoyance towards Sasuke was the scene with him learning to shoot fireballs.

"Why does everything reduce to sex?

By which I mean, I kind of feel that if you watched that fight between Sasuke and Naruto and thought that the subtext was "I wanna get into his pants," I think you missed the point."

If you ever figure out why "I want to fight you" (be it "we're friends/non-hateful rivals who want to know which is better" or "I want to stop you" or "I want to rip your heart out") is always interpretted as "I want to have sex with you even though we won't" please, I beg of you, let me know. Because most people who have ever touched a shounen seem to think it's a good excuse for why every shounen male ever would bang his buddy/rival/enemy. "X and B are fighting...they're so having sex!"

See, I am totally guilty of doing exactly that - Spirit Oasis fight, Ino and Sakura's fight - but in this case... all the emotions are so clearly focused on the familial bonds, that it just REALLY doesn't seem sexual to me.

Heh...the Sakura/Ino thing is another thing I really don't get...the whole "romantic rivalry over someone is just a mask for sexual feelings towards each other." Sometimes it's there and is true, but more often, it (like the "fighting=UST thing") reads like a justification for wishfulfillment. (Which is not to say that's Sakura/Ino...I honestly cannot remember how I parsed anything there...mostly, I remember being confused at the Shikamaru/Ino ship.)

Well, as you know, I'm much more into the whole fighting=UST thing than you are, but there are situations where I feel it just doesn't work.

With Ino/Sakura, though, it's so clear that it's a RIVALRY (as in, it's always 'I won't be beaten by you,' Sakura taunting Ino to make sure she fights her hardest) first, and romantic secondary (there are multiple instances of Sasuke being, like, the LAST rationale for their actions, and not the first.) And then, combine that with the whole 'Sakura, you bloomed' conversation with Ino post fight, and.... yeah. I'm seeing major vibes.

(And to me, Shikamaru/Ino is Sakura/Sasuke redux, without even the few hints that are given that show that Sasuke likes Sakura.)

Naruto and Sasuke could have that dynamic, but they could just as well not; it's the difference between "oh, I will blushingly admire this person from afar and/or be loving and fluffy and try to impress them" and "wow, I kind of want to shag this person against a tree right now". So comparing it to romantic relationships in the context of the show doesn't necessarily... work.

If we're getting into a canon argument (which I have no patience for, as I'm sure you know) I do think looking at how the mangaka writes other romantic relationships has validity.

My main point here, and it's only my opinion, is that making Sasuke and Naruto's fight about sex... it really takes all the emotional gravitas and weight of history out of it. It's like... watching the scene on the cliffs with Sokka and Toph and coming away from it with 'omg! Katara x Toph are totally doing it!' and missing everything it's saying about family.

Now, granted, I think people sometimes overanalyze 'subtext' in an attempt to verify things as canon (when did it become so wrong to ship a pairing that isn't canon?), but there is such thing as overanalyzing why a pairing can't be canon. After all, everyone is still going to read things differently. XD

I honestly hate the whole 'canon is better than fanon' vice versa, 'my fanon is canon' thing, but I KNOW at lot of people see that seen as full of UST and I just had to throw my 2 cents in.

Also, randomly, when and where is your birthday party this Sunday?

In all honesty, I'd be a lot more tolerant of "fighting=UST" if the whole "fighting is how mangaka work in BL codes" thing hadn't been used to justify pairing up virtually every 2 manga males ever, and to justify all sorts of "enemies as lovers" ships(and no, I'm not referring to Zuko/Katara or Hakkai/Yaone, but some where there is something seriously wrong with the idea because of the how and whys of the fight...it's like how the enmity between Rachel and...uhm...Trent[?] in the Kim Harrison books is meant to be UST, but everything he's done to her makes my stomach churn at the idea. Except that actually is meant to be there-possibly as an eventual red herring before Rachel/Ivy, I don't know.) I'm much more inclined to believe f/f "subtext" in shounen. Not because I see it, but because the target audience is adolescent boys. Shoujo mangaka tend to cram BL codes into the manga-either both ways or onesided-but I've never seen it applied to two males in shounen where it makes the remotest sense.

*nods*

I've heard multiple people say that that particular fight is fantastic, and I totally intend to watch it.

have fun with that while it lasts, it gets hit with a retcon bomb a few hundred chapters later.
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Oh, jeeze, people, haven't we learned how atrocious retconning is?

See, I don't think you can look at authorial intention for subtext, because often times they aren't aware of it, and hello, fanon pairing means that it's probably not the pairing the author is writing.

I just think that while sometimes the UST is there in a fight, sometimes it isn't, and that you really need to look at the characters and the specifics of the fight.

Retconning's not in-and-of itself bad. This one was pretty hamfisted and awful, though.

I have to be honest and say I’ve never quite bought the gender switch argument (that if one were a man and the other a woman people other than slashers would find it romantic) simply because the context would then be different. Men don’t talk or act around women the way they talk around other men, and likewise with women. The context of their actions changes, and thus changes the meaning of their actions.

You have a good point, but I think there are a number of situations where changing the genders wouldn't change the interaction that much or at all, and I think it's a nice reality check for both slashers and het fans - basically, if this was appealing to your shipping preferences, would you see it? And I think often the answer is yes.

I mean, I love how Kakashi really changed as a character from when he was young until now, and how much of Obito kinda lives on in Kakashi.

I know! It's just fantastically more interesting to realize that he's so different from who he used to be.

But doesn't Kiba at least learn how to brush his hair?

Thank you. But I have to say, "im such an itachi fan girl and i was righttt~" is a pretty spoilery thing to say, even without details.

If you're going to get into analysis of subtext without considering authorial intent, it doesn't really work because at that level (which is really more like sub-subtext, or underneath the underneath if you will) everything is completely subjective to the reader. What some people see, others will miss completely, and oftentimes people will come out of it with exactly the opposite views. Discussion on that level is pretty much meaningless because not only are all participants working off of different playbooks, odds are pretty good they aren't even playing the same sport.

The thing about not looking at authorial intent is that then you erase the line between actual UST/subtext, and personal insertion of wishes, and it becomes impossible(imo) to tell which is which. This is why I don't bother with fanon: I just want the story the author is telling, not the story I or someone else wishes they were telling, and if I don't agree with the story they're telling, I either whine about it but enjoy the rest of the canon that I do like, or(much more often) I move on to something else. If I think the canon messed up, then...well...I'd really rather just enjoy something else than try to "fix" it. (Which is proof that I do not remotely have the proper fandom mindset.)

The thing about UST/subtext is if there's anything outside of that aspect to back it up. For example, Mustang/Hawkeye relies heavily on UST, but there are many other things outside of the interprettion of UST to support that interpretation, much moreso in the manga than the anime. (In the manga, the fact that Mustang's feelings for Hawkeye might be more than professional are aluded to quite a few times, and Arakawa has confirmed the shippers' interpretations/suspicions several times, including that the general who told Mustang to marry his granddaughter at the beginning of the series was Hawkeye's grabdfather. It's eventually revealed that many of Mustang's "dates" are actually is network of spies, and at least one is surprised to see him without Hawkeye at one point, and when plot reasons separate them, he talks about how, not only were his pawns and knights taken from him, but also his queen, etc.)

Oh, this arc. ;___;

On slashing/Sasuke Retrieval Arc: Usually on a show like this with so many great characters, I would be slashing left and right. However for some reason, I have no idea why, I have NEVER been able to ship anyone in Naruto, slash, het or otherwise. I mean, I can see where the subtext is, and I hear the faint sound of fangirls squeeing, but I can't make my own mind go there. Go figure. ANYWAY, the relationship building and breaking between Naruto and Sasuke there makes me die inside (in a good way). I mean...they're always had this wonderfully pure rivalry/friendship thing and seeing them actually trying to hurt each other is ...ouch. Believe me, when I watched that in the anime I was crying like a mofo forever. All I wanted was for Sasuke to stop being a dick, hug Naruto, go home and be BFFs forever. And I NEVER want that from two good-looking men who have chemistry. Anyway, where am I going with this? Um, I think the general trend is that for me, Naruto is brilliance that transcends sex in every way. It's about friendship and loyalty and self-empowerment and AWESOME.

And as for everyone living...heh, I totally understand that from a narrative point of view, but at that point I was lying in bed, barely able to see the screen of my laptop because I was crying so much, going "THANK GOD THEY'RE ALL ALIVE!"
...I have a major soft spot for Naruto characters. So yeah, that didn't bother me too much. :) ~~You should see me at the end of Band of Brothers, when people actually DO die...it's not good.~~

You know, you do have a point about the Naruto/Sasuke thing, but I think I would be upset with myself if I did not at least try to defend it! :) I don't speak for every Naruto/Sasuke fan, of course, but this is how I see those two.

There is NOTHING sexual about the fight. It's two twelve year old boys who are very emotionally messed up, and Sasuke especially so. The reason the fight stands out--not just for being an awesome fight--but for the first time the boys are honest with each other. Naruto labels Sasuke as his first and "most important friend" and "something-like-a-brother", and Sasuke openly calls Naruto his "most important friend", since he already has a brother and that boy does not need another sibling. They are trying, as best as they know how, to define their relationship with each other, but I think it's difficult for them because it's not just the difference between "friend" and "brother". Sasuke means more to Naruto than anything, and although Sasuke can never get out of his brother's shadow, this is the VERY first time he has ever admitted to anyone besides his brother that he cares for them, in whatever fashion.

Naruto will do whatever it takes to get Sasuke back, the point that he will abandon his dream of becoming Hokage. Sasuke will do everything it takes to not let Naruto become more important to him that he already his, even to the point that he leaves the only people who have shown him any affection since the murder and takes refuge with a pedophile.

In my opinion, these two idiots deserve each other.

Rather than any kind of UST, the fight (for me) is just one big ball of Unresolved Feelings. And this kind of epic love/hate relationship outshines any of the emotions Naruto might have for anyone else, I think. Until either Sasuke or Naruto dies (or both) these two morons will be dancing around each other, and it's fucked up and unhealthy and right up my alley. :)I think a lot of us in the Naruto/Sasuke corner of the fandom are also familiar with CLAMP's school of "most important person"="soulmate". Whether that is a healthy relationship or not. (There's also a huge connection between Naruto's demon and Sasuke, but I will not spoil that for you).

I also think that this line is rather romantic: "Even if I have to break all the bones in your body and drag you home, I won't let you go to Orochimaru!"

Or later, when he runs into Orochimaru again: "In my presence, don't you dare talk about Sasuke as if he belongs to you!"

Anyway. I know you won't agree with me, but I just didn't want you to think it's JUST about the sex, because to be honest, that's not what Naruto/Sasuke is about. Even if it was canon, these two will probably never get the opportunity to even think about having sex. It's just that I don't want to label them as "friends" or "something-like brothers", when the real meaning of their relationship is so much more complicated than that.

Naruto is, for what ever reason, totally a show about family. That's what they all want, that's what the teams stand for, that's what Kakashi and Sasuke and Naruto lost...

I was waiting for your comment. ^_^ Because I know you ship those two, and I was reading this going, 'sorry enderxenocide, I just don't see it.'

You have some good point, and I have the feeling you are far, far more rational and clear sighted than the average fangirl (well, I know you are) but for me, the most important thing about Naruto and Sasuke is family, is that sibling bond, so I totally see it in a different light than you do.

The thing about not looking at authorial intent is that then you erase the line between actual UST/subtext

See, to my mind, the whole point of subtext is that it's not nessecarily what the author intended to write, or that there are more ways to look at something than the one way the author does.

Hawkeye/Mustang is a good example (and oh, Roy, calling her your queen, *wibbles*) but then you get into, what exactly qualifies as evidence outside of the UST/subtext, which just circles back to that damned fanon/canon debate that I hate.

Yes and no.

I talk about that alot here:

http://redbrunja.livejournal.com/143180.html#cutid1

Also, in most cases, if someone actually LISTENED when someone said, 'this is the subtext I see, here and here and here, which means X' EVEN IF THEY DID NOT AGREE, I think that someone would be able to at least understand where the other person is coming from.

That's exactly why I dislike the entire concept of fanon shipping. Because it is circular and without authorial intent, there's no line between what'sthere, and what's wishfulfillment.

Seriously, I'm amazed you haven't read all of the manga...

I really don't like reading stuff online, and various libraries has teased and tortured me with the prospect of having the mangas volumes that I still haven't read.

Also, added Roy/Riza aside, I like the anime better.

I remember that post, and to be honest I don't fully agree with it. No, there isn't a writer on the planet who's allowed to say 'this is all there is to my work', because subtext is subjective and everybody's going to see it differently. However, they do get to say 'this is what I see in my work and what I put in there', and that's worth something too.

I also disagree that all subtext is understandable to everyone. To bring up an old and tired example, I've listened at great length to Zuko/Katara shippers talk about the Fire/Water duality, and I still don't understand it. Oh, I can see the duality all right, but I cannot understand how that translates into romantic subtext. The two things are completely divorced to me. My brain's just coming from a different place from theirs, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Anyways, this is all sort of detached from the point I was making, which is that it's impossible to have a meaningful discussion about subtext that isn't about what the authorial intent is. Every other topic relating to the subtext varies so completely from person to person that in a best case, such a discussion goes as follows:

Person A: When I see X scene, this is how I interpret it.

Person B: Really? Huh. When I see that scene, this is how I interpret it.

Person A: Huh. I can respect that.

A worse case goes pretty much exactly like that, except that it involves one or more of the individuals flying off the handle at the other.

And I mean, that's a fine conversation, and it can be a lot of fun to see other people's perspectives, but it doesn't constitute any sort of meaningful discussion. And pretty much any other conversation has to go that way, because what's being put forward is just subjective interpretation.

The only real and meaningful discussion that's possible is trying to suss out which interpretation is the author's. Which in some cases is really easy, and in some cases...not so much.

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Cheer Up, Emo Kid (Or, It's A Family Affair)

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