Oh, thank you so much for this! You've given me a lot of really interesting ideas to sink my teeth into and ponder.
I think it's such a broad and complex issue that there is no one answer to it - but speaking personally, the ideat that it's a way to subvert and gain control over a fear the women live with daily really clicks(I have been very, very lucky so far, but I'm also very very aware - I've taken martial arts classes, I walk with my keys between my fingers at night, I pay attention to who's walking being me - it's really not something you can escape from).
I've also heard a theory (this one spoken re: old skool romances being chockfull of forced seduction and even outright rape) that the fantasy is that the man is so overcome by desire that he can't stop even if she says no. Real rape is more about expressing power via sex than actual desire, but this IS fantasy.
I think this is less true; based on what I've read, a persistent dynamic is the 'I'm going to FORCE you to feel this sexual pleasure' which is a different dynamic than 'I love you so much I can't stop.'
And then there are men with rape fantasies, by which I mean men who fantasize about being raped - of course men are raped, but they don't grow up with the same atmosphere of fear of rape that women do. So what is that about? Is it linked to the same thing that leads some successful dominant men to seek out dominatrixes?
I'd say yes; from what I've seen in our culture, in a lot of ways, men are expected to be good at sex, to be sauve, to know what to do in a way women aren't (when's the last time you say a virginal GUY being taught by the in control, experienced woman?). So a rape fantasy would be a way out of that; suddenly THEY'RE no longer responsible for either their own or their partner's sexual satisfaction.
men who fantasize about raping/forcefully seducing in the same totally fantasy way that we're talking about women fantasizing about being raped. How do you feel about that / how do I feel about that? If we're going to absolve women's fantasies (so long as we bother to think about it instead of going "GOD THIS IS SO HAWT" & RAPEY) in this matter, then do we also absolve men their fantasies so long as it stays fantasy? After all, we as human beings feel enough shame about our sexual desires / should we add to it? Whatever your answer is here, would you feel the same way if I asked it about women who fantasize about raping, rather than being raped?
As long as it stays a fantasy or they choose willing partners who consent, then no, I don't think we can automatically judge men or women from having fantasies where they're the rapist. I mean - I might personally be uncomfortable with that, and if, say, I'm dating a guy with those fantasies I'm not obligated to stick around, but I don't think that get to automatically judge other people's fantasies just because it squicks us, you know?
And I'm a firm believer in thought-freedom. Fantasizing about killing someone is not murder; fantasing about rape is not rape.
(And I did some editing with my words here. I originally had 'thinking' instead of 'fantasizing' which I found problematic - I wanted to be clear on the difference between something that was going to stay in one's own head and something that one is pondering and might become a desire that is acted on. Like, plotting out how you're going to rape someone is far, far different than fantasizing about it.)
that if a woman is turned on by a guy, then two guys together is even better! and hey, there's no pussy in between them to distract from the hot guy-on-guy. That explanation being the gender flipped version of how I've heard guys explain their love of girl-on-girl. But then this explanation doesn't account for the misogyny that you see in a lot of slash.
The key difference between straight men and lesbians and slash (from what I understand) is that often men like lesbians because they can mentally insert themselves between the two; which is not what's happening with slash, where writers often seem to want to divest the proceeding from the female body. So... I don't think it fuctions in the same way that girl-on-girl works for a guy.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Almost an essay part too
I think it's such a broad and complex issue that there is no one answer to it - but speaking personally, the ideat that it's a way to subvert and gain control over a fear the women live with daily really clicks(I have been very, very lucky so far, but I'm also very very aware - I've taken martial arts classes, I walk with my keys between my fingers at night, I pay attention to who's walking being me - it's really not something you can escape from).
I've also heard a theory (this one spoken re: old skool romances being chockfull of forced seduction and even outright rape) that the fantasy is that the man is so overcome by desire that he can't stop even if she says no. Real rape is more about expressing power via sex than actual desire, but this IS fantasy.
I think this is less true; based on what I've read, a persistent dynamic is the 'I'm going to FORCE you to feel this sexual pleasure' which is a different dynamic than 'I love you so much I can't stop.'
And then there are men with rape fantasies, by which I mean men who fantasize about being raped - of course men are raped, but they don't grow up with the same atmosphere of fear of rape that women do. So what is that about? Is it linked to the same thing that leads some successful dominant men to seek out dominatrixes?
I'd say yes; from what I've seen in our culture, in a lot of ways, men are expected to be good at sex, to be sauve, to know what to do in a way women aren't (when's the last time you say a virginal GUY being taught by the in control, experienced woman?). So a rape fantasy would be a way out of that; suddenly THEY'RE no longer responsible for either their own or their partner's sexual satisfaction.
men who fantasize about raping/forcefully seducing in the same totally fantasy way that we're talking about women fantasizing about being raped. How do you feel about that / how do I feel about that? If we're going to absolve women's fantasies (so long as we bother to think about it instead of going "GOD THIS IS SO HAWT" & RAPEY) in this matter, then do we also absolve men their fantasies so long as it stays fantasy? After all, we as human beings feel enough shame about our sexual desires / should we add to it? Whatever your answer is here, would you feel the same way if I asked it about women who fantasize about raping, rather than being raped?
As long as it stays a fantasy or they choose willing partners who consent, then no, I don't think we can automatically judge men or women from having fantasies where they're the rapist. I mean - I might personally be uncomfortable with that, and if, say, I'm dating a guy with those fantasies I'm not obligated to stick around, but I don't think that get to automatically judge other people's fantasies just because it squicks us, you know?
And I'm a firm believer in thought-freedom. Fantasizing about killing someone is not murder; fantasing about rape is not rape.
(And I did some editing with my words here. I originally had 'thinking' instead of 'fantasizing' which I found problematic - I wanted to be clear on the difference between something that was going to stay in one's own head and something that one is pondering and might become a desire that is acted on. Like, plotting out how you're going to rape someone is far, far different than fantasizing about it.)
that if a woman is turned on by a guy, then two guys together is even better! and hey, there's no pussy in between them to distract from the hot guy-on-guy. That explanation being the gender flipped version of how I've heard guys explain their love of girl-on-girl. But then this explanation doesn't account for the misogyny that you see in a lot of slash.
The key difference between straight men and lesbians and slash (from what I understand) is that often men like lesbians because they can mentally insert themselves between the two; which is not what's happening with slash, where writers often seem to want to divest the proceeding from the female body. So... I don't think it fuctions in the same way that girl-on-girl works for a guy.