redbrunja | Cheer Up, Emo Kid (Or, It's A Family Affair)

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Cheer Up, Emo Kid (Or, It's A Family Affair)

I love it when I'm wondering about some element of a story - in this case, who polices Konoha - and I get an answer almost right away.

I think the idea of Sasuke's clan being the ones who were supposed to police the town and the other ninjas was nicely apropos, and surprisingly enough, I now have a lot of sympathy for Sasuke.

He's still making blindingly bad decisions, and ignoring all the ropes people are throwing him, but I adored how you could see Sasuke's father screwing up Itachi who screws up Sasuke, who goes on to think that his only real option for defeating his brother is to join Orchimaru.

(And he might not be wrong - if you set aside all moral and emotional considerations, chasing after the power being offered him is a clever move. It's not smart, but it's clever. Sasuke just has no fucking idea of what he's losing by doing so.)

Also, Sasuke learning how to make those fireballs, with his puffed out cheeks and little flash of belly button was just about the most adorable thing ever.

The Naruto vs Sasuke fight was very cool, and I loved the headband motif. Sasuke's line about being "more special than you" almost made me do a spit take, it was so hilariously lol-tastic.

I know how many slashers adore Sasuke/Naruto, and I usually don't use this argument, because I'm honest enough to know that if the genders were different, say if Gojyo was a girl, I'd be over Gojyo/Hakkai like white on rice, but this time, I have to:

Why does everything reduce to sex?

By which I mean, I kind of feel that if you watched that fight between Sasuke and Naruto and thought that the subtext was "I wanna get into his pants," I think you missed the point.

Look at the way that the characters interact: when they're interested in someone romantically, they are not subtle about it at all. We all know that Sakura is pinning after Sasuke, and Naruto is pinning after Sakura, and Hinata is pinning after Naruto, and in the case of the first two, they are fucking BLATANT about their affections.

There is no room for confusion about that. And when Sakura starts to think fondly of and respect Naruto, she treats him like a brother or friend - none of the blushing, subservant way she treats Sasuke.

We don't know how Sasuke acts when he is actually is crushing on someone, but look at how he acts with his brother: He wants attention, wants to be as good as/better then, and then he wants to kill his brother.

That is almost the same emotional arc as Sasuke's relationship with Naruto, with the exception that Naruto is the one striving for attention and to be as good as/better than, and Sasuke is the one not giving him attention.

My point is, Sasuke's main relationship are all fraternal, and Naruto explicitly labels his relationship with Sasuke in familial terms. (And wondering if being with Iruka was like being with a father made me wibble.)

In other news, I loved Temari's conversation with Shikamaru in the hospital (though I wish either Neji or Choiji or Kiba would have died, simply because everyone making it out alive stretched my sense of credibility.) Poor Shikimaru, getting tag-teamed by both is father and ~~his girlfriend~~ Temari. I love how cold and ruthless she is, and I loved Nara-senior's comment about how you have to stick around to keep your friends safe.

Seeing Sakura come to Tsunade and ask for training was fantastic, as was Tsunade's conversation about the skills medic-nins have to have but I have to say, I was almost nauseous when I saw Sakua healing the fish. I know that l soon every female ninja sans Temari is going to be getting medic training, which makes me go, 'way the hell to ruin any chance of letting Sakura be special.' Sure, she ends up all badass from her training, but the fact that every other girl is going to be doing the same thing takes away any value. It would be completely different if they were picking medics based on, you know, personality or skill, but the mangaka totally isn't. I mean, Ino? I love the girl, but she (and Shikamaru) are the worst people to work in medicine in the whole manga. What about Choiji or Shino or Rock Lee? (Okay, he can't do the medical techniques so he's out, but you get my point, right?) The idea that Ino could be more valuable in medicine than in information gathering is ludicrous.

*sigh*

End rant.

So... Kakashi gaiden.

wee!Kakashi: most adorable thing ever Y/Y?

That was fantastic backstory for him.

And I have to say, Obito, Kakashi must have really liked you, because you're whole, 'Your father was a hero' *two panels pass* 'Your father was even lower scum!' was... not an argument that I would have listened to.

But I adore the whole 'sharingan as a gift' and when Kakashi is crying out of just that eye.

I totally need a wee!Kakashi icon.

Also, when do we learn that Kakashi was in ANBU and how Rin died? Because what Kakashi was wearing sort-of looked like an ANBU uniform, but I didn't see a tatto and it was never mentioned, but I thought this was around the time he was being sent out on assassination missions? Or was that after he mastered his chidori?

Speaking of, Sasuke has three 'comets' in his eye and Kakshi has two, correct? And do you think the Sharigan 'remembers' things it has learned? By which I mean, if it was passed on, does it/new person use jujitsu that had been memorized before, or does the new person have to relearn everything?

So now I'm on to Shippuuden! Where Sakura wears awesome boots and rivals Toph for earthbending, Temari is a jounin and Kakashi continues to be awesome!

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Well, as you know, I'm much more into the whole fighting=UST thing than you are, but there are situations where I feel it just doesn't work.

With Ino/Sakura, though, it's so clear that it's a RIVALRY (as in, it's always 'I won't be beaten by you,' Sakura taunting Ino to make sure she fights her hardest) first, and romantic secondary (there are multiple instances of Sasuke being, like, the LAST rationale for their actions, and not the first.) And then, combine that with the whole 'Sakura, you bloomed' conversation with Ino post fight, and.... yeah. I'm seeing major vibes.

(And to me, Shikamaru/Ino is Sakura/Sasuke redux, without even the few hints that are given that show that Sasuke likes Sakura.)

In all honesty, I'd be a lot more tolerant of "fighting=UST" if the whole "fighting is how mangaka work in BL codes" thing hadn't been used to justify pairing up virtually every 2 manga males ever, and to justify all sorts of "enemies as lovers" ships(and no, I'm not referring to Zuko/Katara or Hakkai/Yaone, but some where there is something seriously wrong with the idea because of the how and whys of the fight...it's like how the enmity between Rachel and...uhm...Trent[?] in the Kim Harrison books is meant to be UST, but everything he's done to her makes my stomach churn at the idea. Except that actually is meant to be there-possibly as an eventual red herring before Rachel/Ivy, I don't know.) I'm much more inclined to believe f/f "subtext" in shounen. Not because I see it, but because the target audience is adolescent boys. Shoujo mangaka tend to cram BL codes into the manga-either both ways or onesided-but I've never seen it applied to two males in shounen where it makes the remotest sense.

See, I don't think you can look at authorial intention for subtext, because often times they aren't aware of it, and hello, fanon pairing means that it's probably not the pairing the author is writing.

I just think that while sometimes the UST is there in a fight, sometimes it isn't, and that you really need to look at the characters and the specifics of the fight.

If you're going to get into analysis of subtext without considering authorial intent, it doesn't really work because at that level (which is really more like sub-subtext, or underneath the underneath if you will) everything is completely subjective to the reader. What some people see, others will miss completely, and oftentimes people will come out of it with exactly the opposite views. Discussion on that level is pretty much meaningless because not only are all participants working off of different playbooks, odds are pretty good they aren't even playing the same sport.

Yes and no.

I talk about that alot here:

http://redbrunja.livejournal.com/143180.html#cutid1

Also, in most cases, if someone actually LISTENED when someone said, 'this is the subtext I see, here and here and here, which means X' EVEN IF THEY DID NOT AGREE, I think that someone would be able to at least understand where the other person is coming from.

I remember that post, and to be honest I don't fully agree with it. No, there isn't a writer on the planet who's allowed to say 'this is all there is to my work', because subtext is subjective and everybody's going to see it differently. However, they do get to say 'this is what I see in my work and what I put in there', and that's worth something too.

I also disagree that all subtext is understandable to everyone. To bring up an old and tired example, I've listened at great length to Zuko/Katara shippers talk about the Fire/Water duality, and I still don't understand it. Oh, I can see the duality all right, but I cannot understand how that translates into romantic subtext. The two things are completely divorced to me. My brain's just coming from a different place from theirs, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Anyways, this is all sort of detached from the point I was making, which is that it's impossible to have a meaningful discussion about subtext that isn't about what the authorial intent is. Every other topic relating to the subtext varies so completely from person to person that in a best case, such a discussion goes as follows:

Person A: When I see X scene, this is how I interpret it.

Person B: Really? Huh. When I see that scene, this is how I interpret it.

Person A: Huh. I can respect that.

A worse case goes pretty much exactly like that, except that it involves one or more of the individuals flying off the handle at the other.

And I mean, that's a fine conversation, and it can be a lot of fun to see other people's perspectives, but it doesn't constitute any sort of meaningful discussion. And pretty much any other conversation has to go that way, because what's being put forward is just subjective interpretation.

The only real and meaningful discussion that's possible is trying to suss out which interpretation is the author's. Which in some cases is really easy, and in some cases...not so much.

Also oh my god I am having such a love affair with that Hiyori icon. I need someone to stop me before it's too late. XD

I've had too many authors pull things out of left field, or decide things that made to sense to trust them on knowing or understanding what they're writing, so I have a really hard time with the idea that only the story the author is fully conscious of writing is the only one with meaning.

...and that's not at all what I said!

I know, I'm sorry, I answered that one really badly.

What I MEANT, and failed to articulate, was that first, I don't have a problem with the 'this is how I see it.' 'Oh, I see, and respect' that conversation, especially since usually you can find some middle ground, if not on, say, a shipping point, on another character, or something else.

Secondly, I disagree that 'The only real and meaningful discussion that's possible is trying to suss out which interpretation is the author'. If you're trying to PREDICT what's GOING to happen, yes, you want to try to figure out what the author is doing, but if you're just enjoying the fandom, and then see hints of something that makes you go "Shiny!"... I don't think that has inherently less value than agreeing with whatever the author says is right, especially since, as I mentioned, I have so, so little trust in authors at this point.

Oh, no, I enjoy those sorts of conversations greatly as well. There's nothing wrong with them, and they're not of less value or anything. What I meant by 'meaningful discussion' is a conversation with actual back-and-forth arguments, with room for persuasion, much like what we're doing right now. Once both sides have stated their interpretations, there...really isn't anywhere for a conversation to go except to describe them in more detail or move on to describe other interpretations you have. You can't really have debate over it.

Well, not without winding up on fandom_wank, anyways.

That's true to an extent. I mean, further down enderxenocide explained how she viewed this fight as a Sasuke/Naruto shipper, and now I can see where she's coming from it. (Admittedly, she's way more sane than 99% of the fandom.)

The thing about not looking at authorial intent is that then you erase the line between actual UST/subtext, and personal insertion of wishes, and it becomes impossible(imo) to tell which is which. This is why I don't bother with fanon: I just want the story the author is telling, not the story I or someone else wishes they were telling, and if I don't agree with the story they're telling, I either whine about it but enjoy the rest of the canon that I do like, or(much more often) I move on to something else. If I think the canon messed up, then...well...I'd really rather just enjoy something else than try to "fix" it. (Which is proof that I do not remotely have the proper fandom mindset.)

The thing about UST/subtext is if there's anything outside of that aspect to back it up. For example, Mustang/Hawkeye relies heavily on UST, but there are many other things outside of the interprettion of UST to support that interpretation, much moreso in the manga than the anime. (In the manga, the fact that Mustang's feelings for Hawkeye might be more than professional are aluded to quite a few times, and Arakawa has confirmed the shippers' interpretations/suspicions several times, including that the general who told Mustang to marry his granddaughter at the beginning of the series was Hawkeye's grabdfather. It's eventually revealed that many of Mustang's "dates" are actually is network of spies, and at least one is surprised to see him without Hawkeye at one point, and when plot reasons separate them, he talks about how, not only were his pawns and knights taken from him, but also his queen, etc.)

The thing about not looking at authorial intent is that then you erase the line between actual UST/subtext

See, to my mind, the whole point of subtext is that it's not nessecarily what the author intended to write, or that there are more ways to look at something than the one way the author does.

Hawkeye/Mustang is a good example (and oh, Roy, calling her your queen, *wibbles*) but then you get into, what exactly qualifies as evidence outside of the UST/subtext, which just circles back to that damned fanon/canon debate that I hate.

That's exactly why I dislike the entire concept of fanon shipping. Because it is circular and without authorial intent, there's no line between what'sthere, and what's wishfulfillment.

Seriously, I'm amazed you haven't read all of the manga...

I really don't like reading stuff online, and various libraries has teased and tortured me with the prospect of having the mangas volumes that I still haven't read.

Also, added Roy/Riza aside, I like the anime better.

I forget...how far into the manga did you get? At some point(a few volumes after the manga and anime completely part ways) it just reaches entire new levels of awesome. It and Claymore are the only manga I follow in scanslations because I can't wait, as opposed to being up to date with the various plotpoints as the rest of my friends. It's hard to explain, because the anime's world's better than most anime (especially anime based on manga...anime-original stories fare better in that regard) in terms of plot, character and character relationships, but it doesn't never reaches the points the manga does. (The manga actually makes Hohenheim as a character much much interesting, and Rose in the manga is downright fun.)

(Honestly, if you can. track down vol 15-its self-contained and is the flashback story of Mustang, Hawkeye, Hughes, and Armstrong in the war-and see what you think.)

I got to volume 9.

I really want to get catch up, but I love the anime so much, I have a hard time believing that it could be better. (Plus, there are some significant differences between the two, where I love what the anime did SO MUCH, it's hard for the manga to compare.)

I have serious issues with a few parts of the anime(specifically, the handling of Hohenheim, Ed's attitude towards Winry later on, that hideous Rose arc at the end, and the Ishbalans turning on scar) all of which are different and handled just how I'd want in the manga. For that matter, manga!Rose is completely awesome. There are also a couple twists regarding the homunculi that you could never see coming, including dealing with a foreign OTP who are basically Mustang and Hawkeye in training, but with swords.

Does there really need to be?

i'm not sure I understand the question.

What difference does it make if something's "actually there" as opposed to it being "wish fulfillment"? The resulting fanwork is the same either way, and since what's actually there is based on a subjective interpretation, there's nobody to arbitrate what is and what isn't there. So what difference does it make?

Ah.

Well, I'm thinking mostly in the context that 99% of the internet fandom always seems obsessed with shipping(something I really don't get) and if you remove authorial intent and textual context, then it seems that what you're mostly left with is character type ideals, which removes everything that makes the characters interesting(IMO, at least.)

There's also a difference between "what I like, and think would be fun" and "what the property encourages me to think/want" and most seem to miss that. The first is fine, as long as you remember and realize there's a difference, but more often, I see the latter. A lot of character hate, for example, often seems to be directed at a character being in the way of what a reader/viewer wants, even if the speaker doesn't put it that way. Look at the Bleach fandom(or other fandoms with two females in the "main girl" role.) Large chunks of it seem to think that you can only like Rukia or Orihime, and that they have to be in competition as lead female/Ichigo's love interest, even though the manga doesn't put them in competition, or really imply that Ichigo has strong romantic feelings for either one. Or look at the Avatar fandom. I never heard one negative word about Mai, but as soon as the trailer with Mai and Zuko kissing got out, I suddenly saw how horrible and wretched she was and how the idea of Mai and Zuko was terrible, before the episodes had even aired.

I disagree on the first point. Well, not disagree so much as I think you're arguing at something that doesn't exist. If you remove authorial intent and textual context, yeah you wind up reducing the characters to their archetypes, and that sucks. However, most fanon shippers don't do that. They see the authorial intent, they see the textual context...and then they say 'I like the idea of these other two characters together'. That's something completely different from disregarding the intent and context. It's something based off of their own reading of the text, with their interpretation of the subtext, so you can't very well tell them that their interpretation of it's wrong based on your interpretation of it.

The second point, though, I agree with very strongly. I hate when fandom morons forget that it doesn't really affect their fandom activities what is and isn't canon, and how shipping is not a fucking contest. I doubly hate the character bashing that comes out of that, and triply so as it almost invariably focuses on the female characters.

I just don't get why some people feel it will somehow invalidate their preferences if they aren't canon.

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meganbmoore.livejournal.com - 2008-06-13 00:42 (UTC) - Expand

Excellent point.

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