Azula & Unpopular Fandom Opinions

[redbrunja]

Okay, so I'm doing avatar_contest because I want to get back into the habit of writing for Avatar and honestly, I'm sorry I broke up with that show the way I did.

The last couple of prompts have both reminded me of Azula and you know, the more time goes by the more I realize I am really, really disappointed in how her arc turned out. Even thought I know that she was going crazy because of Mai and Ty Lee betraying her, it still read a lot like another women losing her sanity when when she got power.

I think that Zuko leaving Mai (what was presumably) a really thoughtful letter is a good way to break up with someone in general. Additionally, I think telling her face to face would have been dumb and given Azula a chance to stop him.

It is okay that Ozai was really a faceless villain. That was his role and we didn't need to know/care about his motivations the way we did Azula, Mai, and Ty Lee.

Also, you know Zuko's scar? That is not a symbol of Zuko and Katara's love and when Zuko looks at it he's not going to think about saving Katara; he's going to think about how two of the four members of his family have tried to kill him.

Comments

[rabidline.livejournal.com]

Just read your entry, btw and I loved it.

I read Azula's downfall as family issues. The catalyst might be Mai and Ty Lee betraying her, but the root is Ozai and Ursa (faceless as they may be)- you can see her reaction when her dad basically dismissed her in the finale.

The popular opinion is there because it gives more reason for Dangerous Ladies femmeslash (mostly for Azula/Ty Lee, if I'm not mistaken).


Also, you know Zuko's scar? That is not a symbol of Zuko and Katara's love and when Zuko looks at it he's not going to think about saving Katara; he's going to think about how two of the four members of his family have tried to kill him.
Ah, yes. Agreed.


Ozai as the faceless villain is one reason I don't find his last stand against Aang as epic as I find Zuko's and Azula's.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Honestly I read it straighter (pun intended) that it was really the loss of her friends that cause her insanity. Now, I don't think that he dad leaving her behind helped, but she was clearly on the edge in the first episode after Mai and Ty Lee abandoned her.

Ozai as the faceless villain is one reason I don't find his last stand against Aang as epic as I find Zuko's and Azula's.

For me, it was more how Aang's arc was played out that made me find that fight not-epic.

[iapetusneume.livejournal.com]

I can see where you're coming from with this. When I saw the end, I read Azula losing her sanity as sort of a snowball effect. The danger was always there for it to happen, Mai and Ty Lee betraying her really got the ball rolling, and it quickly picked up speed. I think she would have been fine with power (as was shown when she took over Ba Sing Se), had she not been unhinged.

But still, I read it as the betrayal unhinged her so badly, and she had absolutely no time to recover from it.

On a side note, I think I fell in love with Azula as a character in "The Beach," when for a brief moment you see her facade fall when she says her mother thought she was a monster. It was in that moment that really added a lot of depth to Azula, I think.

It's interesting to think about!

Lastly, I'm very glad that Zuko's scar wasn't healed, and yeah, it would be a terrible reminder about how incredibly messed up his family is.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

During my first watch of the series I would hate Azula and hate her and hate her and then there were these to moments (staring down Long Feng and her playing volleyball) where she was just AWESOME.

[ryanitenebrae.livejournal.com]

My matching opinions:

1. Honestly, I see Azula's breakdown as the logical end of her character arc, and her paranoia as a result of it, not a cause. It was pretty clearly going on since "Boiling Rock," and she's never been particularly stable. Also, a lot of it had to do with love. She felt as if everyone close to her was abandoning her, which triggered her breakdown, which triggered the hallucinations of the first person who abandoned her: Ursa.

2. Agreed. It was the only thing he could do. Mai's loyalties were never really particularly clear up until "Boiling Rock," and he needed to risk nothing. She needed to have no idea where he was, and she needed to not know he was gone until he was far away.

3. Yeah, but once we saw Ozai's face and he became more of a character, we needed more. If they had just kept him this faceless figurehead villain, that'd have worked wonderfully.

4. Yes.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

1.) Possibly, but I really loved how Azula thrived on power, and it was sad to see her break down occuring just as she became Fire Lord. I felt it was a bit of a betrayal of the girl who broke the leader of the Dai Li through sheer badassery.

2.) And even in Boiling Rock, I would argue, her loyalties were clear in the other direction. Not letting Zuko die, is, to my mind, far, far different that say, letting him go to fight the fire nation is, and I don't think she wouldn't have done that if it wasn't Zuko's life on the line.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

But I don't think it stopped her from feeling so terrible. In my own opinion, at least if he had done it face to face, she might gotten some closure. :(

Yes, I'm sure dragging him off for Azula to lock in prison would have given her much closure. And yes, while just getting dumped and not being able to talk back his bad, I see so many people talking about what an omg awful way for Zuko to break up with her and I'm like, really? really now? And knowing Zuko I bet he'd do a BETTER break up in writing than in person, honestly.

Yeah, that scar will bring him some bad memories. But I don't think it's entirely impossible for Zuko to see that scar in a good light.

Knowing Zuko, I find this far-fetched. Especially cause it's a pretty damn ugly scar and he already HAD one of those. That said, I wish fanficcers would actually do the work instead of gabbing on chatrooms about how that scar is totally proof of zutara love111!!!111

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Maybe it wouldn't have seem so bad to most people if Mai got to REALLY be mad at Zuko for what he did.

She WAS really mad at his for what he did and she got to tell him off! And I'm not saying she doesn't have a right to be angry, because that's a natural emotion with a break up, but I don't think that it was this omg awful text message break up thing that everyone is acting like it is.

Especially after she had to have her UNCLE release her from prison, after what Mai did for Zuko.

EXACTLY! That is one of the few times that Zuko is honestly not treating Mai well, but of course NO ONE pays any attention to that!

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Really? The text message break up gets more note than Zuko's bad memory when it comes to Mai?

Yes. Admittedly, I got out of fandom after the finale, so I MIGHT not have heard it if people were talking, but I DO know that everyone HARPED on the good bye letter but very few people mentioned FORGETTING HER WHILE SHE WAS IN PRISON (and it was always zutara fans, which was, of course, grounds for immediate dismissal of the idea.)

[mzminola.livejournal.com]

Zuko didn't do so hot when he was in a powerful position either, doing stupid things to gain/protect it (turning against Uncle, hiring Sparky Sparky Boom Man) turning into a blah prince- and he eventually rejected the position of power.
Of course, he didn't care about the power, he cared about being accepted and loved by his family. Like Azula cared about pleasing her parents.

a good way to break up with someone in general. In his situation, it was the safest. In general it's callous and cowardly. A letter can be a good way to clearly get things stated clearly, but if you can't even read it aloud to them, the least you can do is hand it over in person and wait there or nearby while they read it.
It was right for the situation, but in general? Bollocks.

This (http://phuzzypanda.deviantart.com/art/Avatar-Final-Thoughts-1-92264562) comic pretty much sums up my most common through about the scar.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Zuko didn't do so hot when he was in a powerful position either, doing stupid things to gain/protect it (turning against Uncle, hiring Sparky Sparky Boom Man) turning into a blah prince- and he eventually rejected the position of power.

This is true. However, the implication is that in the finale he's going to be a great Fire Lord, and I think Azula SHOULD have made an awesome evil Fire Lord.

coffeeandink sums it up really, really well here:
http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/879446.html

In general it's callous and cowardly. A letter can be a good way to clearly get things stated clearly, but if you can't even read it aloud to them, the least you can do is hand it over in person and wait there or nearby while they read it.

I honestly disagree, ESPECIALLY if the other person has a way to contact you afterwards (which, admittedly, Mai didn't). I think it can be easier to say what you need to clearly in a letter, and by not being there you can give the person time to process without forcing them to immediately react.

[mzminola.livejournal.com]

He's going to be an awesome firelord due to goals and traits that in Western philosophy are usually associated with female energy- love and peace. I'm not entirely sure what that says, but I like it.
(I was yelling at the screen for her to Agni Kai Zuko AFTER getting coronated, I admit)

I would agree with that meta-essay more if it weren't for the fact that abandonment, paranoia, and arrogance destroyed Azula, not power. As iapetusneume pointed out, Azula did fine with power in Ba Sing Sei.

No one has broken up with me in a letter or e-mail, so I guess I can't argue from personal experience. I think it wouldn't give proper closure.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

...except that I do think that there is a valid point in that she was a princess of the Fire Nation and not the authority in her own right.

Also, I did feel that Azula's insanity took away from the awesomeness of Zuko and Katara taking her down.

I haven't been broken up with by letter or email but from my pov I can see a lot of way in which it might be better for both parties than something that is face to face.

[mzminola.livejournal.com]

Valid point towards what?

...so we have switched from "Azula going insane is bad because it's an example of women not being able to handle power" to "Azula going insane is bad because it makes other people less awesome."
Azula's story arc was fantastic. She was amazing. She was scary, she was good at what she did, and the longer we knew her the more complex and human she became.

Zuko didn't take her down. He culminated his arc not by defeating his father or younger sister, but by standing up to/turning away from his father, and helping other people. He saved Katara's life. He didn't take down Azula at all. He fought her, but he didn't defeat her.

Katara defeated Azula. In an amazing god-damned fight. It was no less intense because Azula was crazy. She was always damned scary, and while her unhingedness made Zuko think he could take her, Katara didn't agree. For her, Azula still seemed like a major threat. Katara was also working on a time-limit as well: she needed to end the fight so she could heal Zuko, her comrade-in-arms.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I was referring to a discussion in a linked post, discussing Azula being so in control in Ba Sing Se and so out of control while she was ruling the Fire Nation.

And I'd not switching anything, I'm doing adding an 'and'.

This discussion has actually helped clarify my thoughts, which are, I think it's a shame how the timing with Azula going crazy worked out and that she went crazy is such an explicitly feminine way (hair cutting is often really expressly tied with the feminine.)

Katara defeated Azula. In an amazing god-damned fight.

Agreed. It was my favorite part of the finale. That said, as a viewer it would have been more satisfying if she hadn't been crazy when Katara and Zuko fought her, but that is totally my personal opinion.

Long comment, sorry.

[strange_quark]

-Hm, I don't see Azula's arc that way. She's never been stable. I think she's always been intensely, obsessively, preoccupied with power, and the way it eventually destroys her seems the inevitable conclusion. How old is Azula when she hopes Iroh won't come home from the war? She's not healthy. Ruined by her father's scheming, maybe, combined with her mother's seeming preference for her older brother. (Who, by the way, stands between her and power. When her father takes Zuko back, he becomes the next in line to become Fire Lord. It's no wonder she's obsessed with destroying him.)

So for me, gender has nothing to do with it. It's about a 14-year-old who always yearned for the love of a parent, who was raised to value power over all other things and whose violent tendencies were encouraged by the one parent who paid special attention to her.

(Now I want to do a massive meta on the Avatar girls).

-I think it's honestly kind that Zuko left any kind of note at all. Alerting anyone with a loyalty to his sister of his intent to leave before he actually, you know, left, speaks to his basic decency.

In fact, even though I'm not a fan of the pairing in any way, I think it does show that he cares enough to not just disappear on her.

-I've had trouble in the past placing my finger on my issue with Ozai as the Big Bad during the finale, and I realized that it was this: his big terrible plan? Was really fucking stupid.

What is the point of acquiring territory if you're just going to destroy it all? Is there nothing to be gained from the Earth Kingdom? Land isn't the issue, it's what you get from it that makes conquering it worthwhile (After all, if the Europeans weren't always taking land for its resources they were competing with each other, but the point is that the Fire Nation doesn't want to compete).

And of course, if you don't know how to get what you want from the land, how stupid is it to bump off everyone who does know? Kill the people of the land and you essentially kill its resources.

Agh, it's just dumb. So yeah, it's fine that he's just evil, but his big old master plan took away from his evil edge with the stupid, so his fight with Aang fell flat for me.

Re: Long comment, sorry.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

She's never been stable. I think she's always been intensely, obsessively, preoccupied with power, and the way it eventually destroys her seems the inevitable conclusion.

This is true. Were women are concerned, however, it's also a massive cliche, and the fact that we are shown multiple men in positions of power who handle it find and one woman who doesn't is subpar gender dynamics for Avatar. (Just look at the order of the white lotus and how just about all the old women that they met were crazy.)

-I think it's honestly kind that Zuko left any kind of note at all. Alerting anyone with a loyalty to his sister of his intent to leave before he actually, you know, left, speaks to his basic decency.

I think so.

Agh, it's just dumb. So yeah, it's fine that he's just evil, but his big old master plan took away from his evil edge with the stupid, so his fight with Aang fell flat for me.

You're right, the plan could have been better. Honestly, even just killing all the people while leaving the land intact (while also short-sighted) would have at least let them colonize and use the land without resistance.

Re: Long comment, sorry.

[squeakchan.livejournal.com]

I kinda always got the idea that Ozai himself was also unhinged, hence why he thought burning an entire nation to the ground was a super awesome speshul idea.

Re: Long comment, sorry.

[strange_quark]

This.

I think only a madman thinks this is a good idea, or caters to his 14-year-old daughter's obviously deranged whims.

Re: Long comment, sorry.

[strange_quark]

Which men handle it fine? Ozai doesn't seem like he's got all of his screws tight either (because, again with the massive genocide, who in their right mind thinks that's a good idea?), and what happens to him in the end is worse, because at least Azula has a chance to heal after her break down. It takes Zuko a long time to get to the place where he would be a reliable Fire Lord: in fact, it's the point of his arc. Aang's ultimate power renders him incapable of following his own strongly held moral code.

The only one who seems to handle power "well" is Long Feng, and his actions have consequences, too.

Just look at the order of the white lotus and how just about all the old women that they met were crazy.

This is a good point.

Re: Long comment, sorry.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Yes, but Ozai's very clearly in control of himself; he was very effective in his madness while Azula is lounging around in her robe and not even been clear about who she's exiling.

Re: Long comment, sorry.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

The voice actress acted the hell out of crazy Azula (possibly one of the best voice performances in the show, IMO) but the differences in male/female insanity and handling of power are the one major strike against the show for me. (Even I admit that I'm somewhat petty when I comes to Jet. I just don't like him and find him a boring cliche.) Also, the Ba Sing Se convo you mentioned may have been in my post, not cofeeandink's.

Re: Long comment, sorry.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

*nods*

Oh, yeah, the VA was amazing. But I really think Azula's breakdown would have played better if:

1.) it had been handled differently

2.) it had occurred at a different point in the series.

Re: Long comment, sorry.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

There are a lot of ways it could have been handled better and, IMO, not many ways it could be handled worse.

Re: Long comment, sorry.

[mzminola.livejournal.com]

Fortune teller was sane. And knowing the future is a skill that usually drives it's users crazy.

Northern Water Tribe healer was sane, Gran-Gran was sane.

Re: Long comment, sorry.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

This is true.

Re: Long comment, sorry.

[mzminola.livejournal.com]

In the essay she linked me to in an above thread, Suki we can't use because the argument is the girls are great, but the older women are crazy.
Though since we're arguing over Azula's crazyness, I don't see why we're dealing only with an older generation, and not her peers.

I didn't mention the Avatars because of the line "Avatar Kyoshi, who gets considerably less screentime than Avatar Roku, and the airbender Avatar who only appears in the finale." They'd already been dismissed due to screentime imbalance.

Re: Long comment, sorry.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I think they were talking about patterns - in season three especially you have a lot of older male characters who are badass - Iroh has his prison break-out arc, you have Piando (?), you see more of Ozai, and then you have the entire male order of the lotus, Roku being trained by all male benders, and that's contrasted with Azula's older henchladies who are used often as the butt joke and Hama, who's crazy and evil.

I think how they made Azula go crazy and their choices NOT to bring back the fortuneteller and the herbalist from season 1 into the Order of the Lotus were unusually bad gender dynamics for this show.

I honestly think Suki would stand up as a much better counterpoint to Azula if we actually saw her fighting and leading her team in season 3. While Suki IS the leader of the kyoshi warriors, she spends a LOT of time separated from them.

Yeah, you can get into plot considerations like time and needing to have Sokka and Suki be a bit isolated for their romance, but still...

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

How the hell is Zuko's scar supposed to be a symbol of Zuko and Katara's love?

That's as bad as the one I heard about how it means it's TRUE LUV that Katara could heal him with normal water when it took Spirit Oasis water to heal Aang. To me, all that meant was that Zuko's wounds were non-fatal and Katara's technique has improved with practice.

Agreed on all points. I figure if Azula had to snap (and with a lack of stabilizing friends, I can accept it), it should have been a more . . . coherent madness. Not the hair-cutting crazylady but more of perhaps a Howard Hughes, carefully screening everyone who gets within 100 feet of her to ensure they're not secretly an assassin or something, or sending out random fire blasts to keep servants on their toes.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

How the hell is Zuko's scar supposed to be a symbol of Zuko and Katara's love?

Because, like, he totally got it saving her! I mean, I ship Zutara, but no. That's not the way it works.

Agreed on all points. I figure if Azula had to snap (and with a lack of stabilizing friends, I can accept it), it should have been a more . . . coherent madness.

YES! That is it exactly!

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Well . . . wait, wait. Might they be referring to scars left by the lightning rather than the face scar? Because then it makes more sense. Still more likely to leave him thinking of family betrayal, but more potential for, say, a thoughtful caress during a shippy scene with Katara.

Snorting fire at random intervals, possibly muttering deranged ramblings under her breath, but with severe control. Walking like a clockwork doll, bending like a living diagram. She seeks perfection at the cost of, well, not being wacky races.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Yes, there were referring to the scar Zuko got in the finale. I still think it's a HUGE leap and really doesn't take into account Zuko's issues to say that it's a 'symbol of their love.'

Walking like a clockwork doll, bending like a living diagram.

Exactly. That would have been more IC.