Five By Five

[redbrunja]

Here are the answers to my Top Five Meme:

despairinbeauty : Top 5 romantic cliches to avoid in a pairing fanfic, especially a multi-chapter action/adventure.

1.) The hero is good at fighting and other military stuff. The heroine is good at... something else. Which is totally important, trust us.

2.) The heroine's apartment/hotel room is broken into.

3.) I've read enough cute conversations in grocery stores, thanks.

4.) Unless it's the chick getting beat up and taken care of, I've also read enough of the hero getting injured and the heroine nursing him.

5.) She has to go undercover and have sex with someone, and it puts their relationship at risk! (Seriously, how about the guy having to use his body sexually and/or it being unpleasant but having them both be matter of fact about it.)

anenko : Top 5 characteristics to give (necessary to create) an awesome female character.

1.) There is only one needed: agency, or the struggle for agency. Everything else - personality, beliefs, appearance - is window dressing.
neko_no_kaze : Top 5 ways to ruin a good plot in a story.

1.) Drag it out too long.

2.) Ignore logical consequences of the good plot.

3.) Make it too easy on the protagonists.

4.) Put sex at illogical places. If I'm thinking 'why the fuck is your penis in her when you should be [insert verb here]' you are doing it wrong. This is partially my taste - competency is one of my bulletproof kinks so if a character acts incompetent it kills my respect or liking of that character and often I'll call ooc on that authorial choice.

5.) Put the climax of the plot in the wrong place.
cynchick : Top 5 reasons why Sai >>>>>> Sasuke.

1.) Sakura doesn't hold back around Sai.

2.) Sai likes it when Sakura punches him.

3.) Sai's abs > Sasuke's pecs

2.) Sai is actively trying to FORM bonds and not destroy them.

1.) Sai was brainwashed to be emotionless; Sasuke is very, very bad at emotions, largely because he trained himself to be. I find the former much more interesting.
lurker_lost : Top five things you love about femslash. Alternatively, top five things you hate about girlslash. By femslash I do mean femslashing in fandom.

What I Don't Love About Girlslash:

1.) There is so little of it.

2.) There are less happy endings written for femmeslash than either het or slash (which from what I hear has no lack of curtain fic). Frankly, I'm just as guilty of this as most everyone else.

3.) It is often used to clear the decks for an author's slash pairing of choice. So, you know, the girl who has a canon relationship with one or the other member is all 'yay, slash!' because she is now in a lesbian relationship and is not a threat to Teh Hot Gay Boiz.

4.) The sex is harder to write. (The is a YMMV thing. I just find, as a heterosexual female, that having just one penis is a sex scene can often make things *gropes after a good pun* not hard? *fails at good inuendou*

5.) It cuts out the possibly of two female characters just being best friends. How about two women have a complicated or close relationship with each other without making it sexual.

visualthinker11 : top five reasons to ship barney/robin (not too exciting, sorry, but i love to hear your opinions on himym!) ; )

1.) They're the two hottest people on HIMYM.





2.) Robin is a bro. Notice how she dresses up and goes to a rave with Barney just because? How she loves cigars and suits and scotch? She's perfect for him.

3.) Dating/doing Barney wouldn't interfere with Robin's career. I can see them having a long-distance thing (aided by phone sex and long distance toys), which means Robin wouldn't have to choose between her love life and what she wants to do with her life.

4.) Barney is Robin's biggest fan. He's clearly the only one watching her show and he takes the time to track down everything Robin Sparkles related that he can.

5.) Robin likes it dirty. And Barney's...well, he's Barney Stinson.

devimelete  - Top Five Books Maka used for Maka Chop.

1.) War & Peace - Leo Tolstoy

2.) Harry Potter & The Order of the Pheonix - JK Rowling

3.) The complete collection of Cardcaptor Sakura - Clamp

4.) Someplace To Be Flying - Charles de Lint

5.) The Unabridged Oxford English Dictionary
qualapec  - Top Five Moments in Tamora Pierce's Tortall universe.

1.) Alanna lets go of Lightning while fighting Roger.

2.) Daine raises the dinosaur to get revenge for her teacher's death.

3.) The conversation Kel and Onua have where Onua talks about how things are changing between the classes and between the sexes and how Kel has helped them change and that she is going to have to hold her temper and not challenge that the noble who tried to rape her servent to a duel.

4.) Alanna's fight with Alex.

5.) Rebekah's collar of the abusive wife.
digthenym - Top Five Crowning Moments of Awesome :o)

(okay, for these I went with the first five incredibly awesome crowing moments of awesome I could remember.)

1.) "Think about living!" Sabriel

2.) "I am no man." - Eowyn

3.)

4.) Fakir stabbing his hand to keep from writing Ahiru's death.

5.)  "When I come to her, she will be safe, unharmed and free. Because I will come to her–and if she is not– I will destory 'Her Undying Majesty', melt what is left of your miserable island to SLAG, AND BOIL THE SEAS AROUND YOU FOR THE NEXT THOUSAND YEARS! Do you understand?

"You couldn't!"

"Couldn't? Couldn't? I'm Gilgamesh Wulfenbach, little man– There's nothing I couldn't do had I cause. And now... Now I have one! Do. You. Understand?"

rabidline  - Top 5 fictional places you wish you can go to.

1.) Colby. Come for the onion rings. Leave with a hot, sensitive boyfriend who thinks you're amazing.

2.) Ile-Rien. The love child of London and Paris.

3.) Death City. For the aesthetic alone it would be worth it.

4.) Newport. Because everyone could use a little magic in their lives.

5.) Tortall.
sureasdawn  - what are your top 5 series or books that would work, recast with blood-sucking creeps in them.

1.) Soul Eater. I'm sure the vampire are just waiting to show up in canon, but Maka would be a fantastic slayer.

2.) Black Lagoon. Seriously, Revy and Alucard would get on like a city on fire.

3.) Fringe. The vampires would be explained via Walter's technobabble and Olivia is another character who would make a great Slayer.

4.) Yankee-kun to Megane-chan. Just imagine Shinagawa and Adachi and their posse hunting down and slaying things. It would be epic.

5.) Princess Tutu. Because I think with the way they twisted and tweaked fairy tales and ballets, their take on vampires would be AWESOME.
ivy_chan  - Alright, top five shippy Sai/Saku moments.

1.) Sakura punches Sai. And then he smiles at her a lot and looks respectful.

2.) OMFG the umbrella scene.

3.) Sai cock!blocks Sakura feeding Naruto ramen.

4.) Sakura comes out to see what Sai is painting.

5.) Sakura reading Sai's picture book.

Comments

[anat-astarte.livejournal.com]

OMG Awesome post! :D

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

[okroginator.livejournal.com]

OMG, so much awesome in one post.

Your Crowning Moments of Awesome were indeed awesome. (The Sabriel one especially ♥ ♥ ♥)

Daine raises the dinosaur to get revenge for her teacher's death.

WORD.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I have no words for how epic and badass that kiss was.

[hungrytiger11.livejournal.com]

... and now I want a plane ticket to Newport.

Or at the very least my collection of short stories out of storage. :D

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I could go for a plan ticket to Newport at the moment.

Sai cock!blocks Sakura feeding Naruto ramen.

[(Anonymous)]

What chapter did this happen? I totally missed out on this! <3

Re: Sai cock!blocks Sakura feeding Naruto ramen.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Right after they got back from Shikamaru's arc of bloody revenge.

[ryanitenebrae.livejournal.com]

When I went through my rebellious phase, Newford was one of the two fictional, magical cities I desperately wanted to run away to.

I disagree about cute conversations in grocery stores. ^^;

Yes, but. . .if a female character has agency but is otherwise a flat character, is that better than a well-developed and drawn out female character without agency?

I love how, when she fights Alex, Alanna completely obeys the rules of chivalry until Alex breaks them. At that point, anything goes, and she promptly kills him.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I disagree about cute conversations in grocery stores. ^^;

I have just read too damn many of them.

I cannot even imagine a character that is well-developed and drawn out and has neither agency nor desire for agency, and even if such a creature existed, I would NOT label her an awesome character.

I love how, when she fights Alex, Alanna completely obeys the rules of chivalry until Alex breaks them. At that point, anything goes, and she promptly kills him.

I haven't hit that point in my lioness rampant reread and I honestly don't remember much of that fight beyond Alanna's finishing blow.

[ryanitenebrae.livejournal.com]

I have just read too damn many of them.

I guess I'm thinking in general in fiction, and not in fanfiction. ^^;


I cannot even imagine a character that is well-developed and drawn out and has neither agency nor desire for agency, and even if such a creature existed, I would NOT label her an awesome character.

But what about Rei Ayanami? She has no desire for agency until late in the series, but I don't feel that this makes her a less interesting character. This is also the case for Ritsuko to a certain extent, at least in terms of Gendo.

Although I guess this is kind of a paradox for me. If a character is in a situation where they are not in control, but they are happy, wouldn't they have agency anyway? And if they are unhappy, wouldn't that automatically be desire for agency? I guess it would be more than possible for them to be upset with the situation but not be willing to fight against it, though.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Two thoughts:

First, is Rei an awesome characters?

Presupposing the answer to the above is 'yes', doesn't the fact that part of her character arc is about finding agency support my point? (Honestly, though, it's been such a long time since I watched Eva I'm fuzzy on the details.)

Also, Ritsuko killed someone who threatened her relationship with Gendo. I think it's safe to say she had agency.

[ryanitenebrae.livejournal.com]

Rei is awesome to me - I feel like her character type plays on a very common one ("Emotionless Girl") without it actually being present - Rei is very clearly not emotionless or expressionless, and I find it very interesting to see how she does or doesn't react to things. She's not happy with her life at all, but she is very accepting that this is the way things are, which to me is incredibly tragic. I don't know if this comes out to 'awesome,' but I do feel that she is a very well-written and sympathetic character.



Also, Ritsuko killed someone who threatened her relationship with Gendo. I think it's safe to say she had agency.

^^; She did? I remember her mother killing Rei I, but maybe I'm fuzzy as well about Ritsuko .. .

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

She did? I remember her mother killing Rei I, but maybe I'm fuzzy as well about Ritsuko .. .

Was it her mother who killed the first Rei? I don't remember.

[ryanitenebrae.livejournal.com]

Was it her mother who killed the first Rei? I don't remember.

Yeah, I think it was.



Spoilers for anyone reading this, as I realize I forgot to warn previously:


Ritsuko does have agency, I feel, as a character, but not necessarily in terms of her relationship with Gendo, as he successfully controls her, and she either allows it or ignores it, ultimately leading to her death. . . .which is another of the great tragedies of Evangelion

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

*nods*

As long as a character has agency in some area of her life (even or especially if she doesn't have it in ALL areas of her life) I'd say she passes.

[ryanitenebrae.livejournal.com]

Fair enough - by the way, I don't necessarily disagree with your statement, I just tend to open my mouth and things fall out, which I guess is illustated by my being unable to find an unconditional example that goes against it. ^^;

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

*nods*

And I never intended for the agency to be unconditional - I don't think having control over EVERY aspect of her life would make a good character. But it needs to be somewhere.

[tobu-ishi.livejournal.com]

"Couldn't? Couldn't? I'm Gilgamesh Wulfenbach, little man– There's nothing I couldn't do had I cause. And now... Now I have one! Do. You. Understand?"

That, and the Schmott Guy Hat "proof of identity", are my all-time favorite Gil moments. Says the girl who only got into the series a month ago.

*chuckles* Poor Gil, though--he's done nothing but grieve for the lady since she 'died', and nothing but champion her since he found out she didn't, and she has no bleeding idea. That and, thanks to an amazingly well-choreographed accidental smear campaign from what seems to be All The World And Its Clever Auntie, and she just about wants to murder him by this point. That poor, poor boy... ^^;

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I need to catch up - it's been MONTHS since I've read it.

That and, thanks to an amazingly well-choreographed accidental smear campaign from what seems to be All The World And Its Clever Auntie, and she just about wants to murder him by this point. That poor, poor boy... ^^;

I know. But I think when they finally get together (which they will) it will be epic. And (last I read) while Agatha didn't TRUST Gil, she certainly cared about what happened to him.

[d-angel.livejournal.com]

I also love to think that Maka has unabridged Oxford Dictionary hiding somewhere for those special occasions...

Though the fact that she whacks people with GanGan is pretty good, too. I always get asked if I'm reading a manga or a phone book by my co-workers. XP

DA

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

You know she does.

And *snort*

The big pictures weren't a clue?

[d-angel.livejournal.com]

Well to be fair, GanGan is a huge magazine. It can out-heavy Jump six ways from Sunday. As I keep telling my coworkers every month, it's a magazine you don't mess with (deadly corners on those things).

DA

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Hee!

[devimelete.livejournal.com]

I'm a bit confused on the agency part. Care to elaborate?

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Well, I thought about the one characteristic all the female characters I liked had and it boiled down to a level of instrumentality in their own lives or the struggle to gain that.

Basically, they are not passive pawns of other people.

[digthenym.livejournal.com]

Can I just say this was a really fantastic post? This topic "Top 5 romantic cliches to avoid in a pairing fanfic, especially a multi-chapter action/adventure" was especially helpful xD

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Glad to be of service!

[anenko.livejournal.com]

There is only one needed: agency, or the struggle for agency.

But that would involve treating women like people :(

Seriously, though, that's a wonderful answer.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

But that would involve treating women like people :(

And who does that?

[kai-lis.livejournal.com]

Seconding most of what you said about girlslash. I'd really like to see more that isn't angsty but refrains from the pure fanservice aspect (I can't remember ever reading any girlslash curtain fic, now that you mention it.). I don't find the sex any more difficult to write than het sex, but then, I have difficulty writing that too ....

Daine raises the dinosaur to get revenge for her teacher's death.

This is the scene that taught me that romance can be EPIC.

You know, Maka's really good at Crowning Moments of Awesome.

Fakir stabbing his hand to keep from writing Ahiru's death.

Now I really need to finish rewatching the series. I need to see that scene again, like burning.

"Couldn't? Couldn't? I'm Gilgamesh Wulfenbach, little man– There's nothing I couldn't do had I cause. And now... Now I have one! Do. You. Understand?"

I like how, though Gil has always been pretty cool and badass, it takes Agatha to bring out the best of those aspects.

Oh, and a belated happy birthday. =)

[visualthinker11.livejournal.com]

"1.) There is only one needed: agency, or the struggle for agency. Everything else - personality, beliefs, appearance - is window dressing."

NICE.

"I can see them having a long-distance thing (aided by phone sex and long distance toys)..."

oh god, you're so right


"...which means Robin wouldn't have to choose between her love life and what she wants to do with her life."

plus barney's sketchy job that earns him lots of money will help pay for lots of plane tickets!

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

oh god, you're so right

Years ago I heard about a remote controlled vibrator - like, vibrator in one place, controlled by someone else far away.

You know Barney has one.

plus barney's sketchy job that earns him lots of money will help pay for lots of plane tickets!

I am beyond positive that his company owns at least one airline and that he flies for free.

[visualthinker11.livejournal.com]

"like, vibrator in one place, controlled by someone else far away."

see, now my brain is just asking how far a distance that remote control can span.

"I am beyond positive that his company owns at least one airline and that he flies for free."

his company has probably bought his division a personal jet. : P

[sureasdawn.livejournal.com]

Hah! I've only seen Princess Tutu out of all of those. Clearly I am not on top of things like I should be.

Totally agree about the plot one and the agency one, though due to the two-year-old on my lap I won't be elaborating.

Oh, and Happy Birthday!

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Well, if you do get a chance to read/watch them, I hope you enjoy.

And do you have more time to elaborate now? If you want to.

And thank you!

[sureasdawn.livejournal.com]

The boy is asleep and I am awful at writing meta, but I'll have a go at it.

As far as agency goes, if a character, any character doesn't have agency period I imagine you're in for a pretty dull ride because this character is so flaccid, they probably don't even have the motivation to get up out of bed to pee.

I suppose providing your characters with agency within the world you've built might go doubly for female characters, if only that they have to wave twice as hard to get attention away from the male characters. Focusing on her actions, her mistakes and grabs for acknowledgment of her existence, and positively enough that she is making ripples instead of being rippled over. But then she's labeled a Mary Sue for being too speshul. Let's not get you started on Mary Sues though. XD

As far as plot goes:

1)THIS so much! The books that come to mind immediately are the Crown of Stars series by Kate Elliot. I liked this series a lot when it started, just because it was so intricate, and had so many interesting female characters, but it just kept going on and on and I just stopped caring. Oh yeah, and Naruto, but I kind of give it a pass in that for being a serial and for making Jump a lot of money so they can finance up and coming artists.

2) You mean once a character is dead, they should stay dead? Or that they shouldn't survive obviously mortal wounds just because the author is too much of a weenie to kill them?

3) Though I really hate the reverse, when a book becomes all about how miserable the character is and how completely superficial all their relationships are because of circumstances and dammit, I just want you to throw me a bone with this book you meanie, cause I'm already so bummed out. End rant against Robin Hobb, who isn't at fault, because I'm not the sort of person she's writing to.

4) This is the primary reason I don't read category/genre romances because a lot of them (or at least the ones I picked up and quickly put down) are nonsensical. Stopping the story and uh, plugging in a random sex scene, just because you couldn't fit it anywhere else/your editor said there had to be one somewhere is just sloppy writing.

5) Ouran High School Host club is super guilty of this one. Even as a serial, it should have ended a long time ago. I'm having trouble coming up with a book that did this - probably because I lost interest and didn't finish it, which is not exactly a rare thing for me to do.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

if a character, any character doesn't have agency period I imagine you're in for a pretty dull ride because this character is so flaccid, they probably don't even have the motivation to get up out of bed to pee.

Exactly.

But then she's labeled a Mary Sue for being too speshul. Let's not get you started on Mary Sues though. XD

Let's really not. I like my blood pressure where it is.

1.) I liked this series a lot when it started, just because it was so intricate, and had so many interesting female characters, but it just kept going on and on and I just stopped caring.

Exactly. If it looks like nothing is ever going to be resolved, why should I keep reading?

You mean once a character is dead, they should stay dead? Or that they shouldn't survive obviously mortal wounds just because the author is too much of a weenie to kill them?

I actually meant more generally, like if you hit a police officer and don't get arrested or someone who has never been shown to be dumb misses something obvious just to keep the plot moving.

Stopping the story and uh, plugging in a random sex scene, just because you couldn't fit it anywhere else/your editor said there had to be one somewhere is just sloppy writing.

Agreed. And it happens SO MUCH in fanfic.

I'm having trouble coming up with a book that did this - probably because I lost interest and didn't finish it, which is not exactly a rare thing for me to do.

I used to do that a lot more. Now I check out less books and read them slower, which means I'm picker and end up completing... when less total but proportionally more.

[neko-no-kaze.livejournal.com]

Thanks for listing the 5 plot disasters. I've been trying to write for what feels like forever at this point. Nothing online at this point, just bits and pieces. Things listed of what not to do help a lot. And on that point.

3. I hate/secretly like when things are too easy and the opposite/Subversion? of it makes me depressed too. I can think of brutal villains, but I'm horrified of writing them. so yeah.

5. Yeah, I'm not really sure where to put the climaxes either, beyond from the English class. Though I have come across published books that didn't do so well either. I think that was my problem (among other things) with Wind of Fate.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

You're welcome.

And a villain doesn't have to be horrible or brutal - they just have to give the protagonists problems.