This Was Too Good A Question To Answer Anonymously

[redbrunja]

Okay, over on the Naruto what-if meme someone asked the question, "What if Kishi actually decided to make Sasuke and Naruto a couple at the end of the manga? Would fandom explode? How would this be seen by different cultures/the media (Naruto is a fairly popular manga)? Would this affect the way kids veiw gay couples at all?"

My instinctive thought was 'they wouldn't get it.' I think a lot of the casual, non fandom readers of Naruto would be REALLY confused and I would bet money on the American and Japanese parents flipping the fuck out.

However, what I'm pondering is whether or not having Naruto and Sasuke being gay for each other would change some children's perceptions about homosexuals. Would it make them more accepting? Would they start to see gay people as human beings who deserves the same rights everyone else does?

You thoughts, flist?

Comments

[anat-astarte.livejournal.com]

I'm very curious to know other people's thoughts on these as well, especially since the US fanbase in my area include college age fans- who were talking about 'Naruto' and the backstory on Team 7 on a campus I visited today! :DD

I almost couldn't resist the urge to poll them about their thoughts on the latest chapter XDD

Sorry if my thoughts seemed to be scattered right now.

[devimelete.livejournal.com]

Well, it hard for me to say. I mean, kids weren't really allowed to see anything about homosexuality when they were younger, right? Like that time when there's two lesbians being mentioned in that PBS cartoon show Arthur some years back. Huge backlash, even though the lesbians were barely there for like a few seconds. I think parents try not to let their kids know about homosexuality as long as possible and silently condemned it without being really explicit about it at the same time. So when these kids grow older, they don't see gays as people with rights, just these freakish, shadowy Others, y'know? Weird stuff that their parents dislike and condemn, even though they (the kids) don't really know what homosexuality is about because they were never allowed to be exposed to it in the first place.

So will it make a difference with the target audience? Hard to say, when the parents are either keeping the idea of homosexuality in the dark or condemning it or both. I think it just cause more drama. While Kishimoto seems like to add some homoerotic undertones with Sasuke and Naruto, I don't think he has the bearings to make it out and open. It seems he has some conflicting views on sex and sexual orientation itself and doesn't want to pursue that angle.

[nenena.livejournal.com]

However, what I'm pondering is whether or not having Naruto and Sasuke being gay for each other would change some children's perceptions about homosexuals. Would it make them more accepting? Would they start to see gay people as human beings who deserves the same rights everyone else does?

Yes. Absolutely.

This isn't just my opinion, but SCIENCE! says so.

I wrote one of my undergraduate capstone papers on this very topic, actually - how media representations of gay and lesbian characters influence children's beliefs and attitudes toward homosexuality. Long story short, there is a LOT of very tight research devoted to this topic, and in general, any time kids are exposed to heroic/good characters who also happen to be gay, it has an enormously positive influence on their acceptance of homosexuality, even when their parents and/or religions teach them otherwise.

[mistaria.livejournal.com]

Or would it make them start calling each other "fags" from an even younger age? I think it might depend a lot on the parents. When I was 13 I remember some idiots who didn't even know what homosexuality was making fun of it or saying things against it because of things they'd heard from their parents. So if the parents were against it and there was a big outcry I could see kids who weren't even fans of the series making fun of their peers who did enjoy it.

I don't really trust either society (Japanese or American) to react in a positive way to such an ending, even though it would be excellent. Maybe I'm not giving people enough credit but in these matters I tend to always expect the worst from people since I've seen it so many times.

The only way I could see it working out well would be if the characters had been established as gay from the beginning (though not necessarily delving into that). I can see a lot of parents having problems with the whole "experimentation" line of thought that would surely come up.

[devimelete.livejournal.com]

there is a LOT of very tight research devoted to this topic, and in general, any time kids are exposed to heroic/good characters who also happen to be gay, it has an enormously positive influence on their acceptance of homosexuality, even when their parents and/or religions teach them otherwise.

Wow. I had no idea.

[anat-astarte.livejournal.com]

Hi, I'd love to see the research since it pertains very much to my interests. Got links? *pretty please!*

[nenena.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, I wrote that paper back in 2001, and that was before I was smart enough to start permanently saving all of my college writing. So I don't have the paper any more. But I can tell you right now that most of my sources were journal articles; if you have access to JSTOR, ERIC, or any other education and/or psychology database, this stuff shouldn't be too hard to find.

(And if you don't have access to those things - as I no longer do - then, uh, I dunno what to say. Such is the unfairness of academic elitism.)

[kalliel]

I think it would be difficult to think of Naruto and Sasuke as real people in the first place. Most of their depth/worth exists exclusively in fandom, IMHO, so I doubt their being gay would be all that thought-provoking. It would either be "okay, who cares?" or "what the fuck????" But then, this might just be unwarranted pessimism, because I'm still :EEEEE at Naruto for the Leaf Splitting arc and the Pein arc, and :EEEEE at Sasuke for, uh, well. Whatever it is he's being doing. So it's hard to imagine them being perceived as a force for social change.

Depending on the age of the child, though, I don't think they'd make the distinction between Really Good Friends and Gay Couple (or Het Couple and Friends, for that matter. I didn't, and often still don't). Even if there was A Kiss. I guess it's hard to judge from my perspective, though, because my parents and my family and most of my friends don't categorize relationships that way. (The one who does would likely just chalk Naru/Sasu up to especially amiable platonic love.)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Regardless of my problems with Naruto as a whole, I don't think of Naruto or Sasuke as 'less real' than the majority of other fictional character, whether I love them or not (there are a few exceptions).

Depending on the age of the child, though, I don't think they'd make the distinction between Really Good Friends and Gay Couple

I could see the bottem end of the age not getting it - but I think the majority of the readers would get it.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I think the societies in general would react horrifically to homosexuality in Naruto... but I think on an individual basis, it could be a huge force for tolerance.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Thank you for bringing in the facts! And that is so awesome that such small things can have such a huge positive impacts.

(On that subject, have you ever read Hot Target by Suzanne Brockman? It's a mainstream military romance novel with a heafty gay subplot that lasts through several books and apparently a lot of people have used it to break the news to their parents/reassure their kids that they're gay/they still love them.)

[nenena.livejournal.com]

I haven't heard of that, but it sounds completely awesome!

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I kind of love Brockmann's books more than I should.

[qualapec.livejournal.com]

I could very much see American parents flipping out, although I was under the understanding that Japan has traditionally been more lenient towards male homosexuality (don't know about female, though). I remember on the History Channel once that Samurai and noblemen would often take male lovers in addition to their numerous wives and concubines. The program was "The History of Sex" or something like that. That led me to believe they didn't look at it as taboo the same way western cultures did. Yes, they have culturally restrictive tendencies, but I think they are restrictive in a different way. American parents would blow a fuse, though.

On the reaction to it from a reader standpoint...this really is an interesting question. On one hand, I feel that part of the reason that Naruto is so popular is because little boys see their hyperactive, goofball selves in him and want him to succeed because of that. They relate to him. I think they could relate to him considerably less if it turned out he was gay. These statistics may be wrong, but I believe that only 10% of the population is homosexual. Sure, the homosexual readers would be able to relate...but as a series capper it would leave a lot of people with this feeling of ".......ooooookay...." and then they'd go do something else.

However, mostly I think you're misunderstanding the apathy of tweens and teens. I don't think most of them CARE enough to look at the final page for longer than a minute before putting it behind them forever. They don't ANALYZE. It's entertainment. It's a rare fan that comes along that looks at the series with a great deal of love and depth. Often, it doesn't SEEM like those fans are so rare on the internet...but in RL I encounter more apathy than attentiveness. Not counting the fandom or the female readers who already love yaoi and started the shipping, I honestly don't think it would impact that many teens and tweens. For those that it DOES impact, it might be a huge turning point, but most people won't care.

Also, how would this be any different from those arguments that say yaoi/shonen-ai increases awareness about gay rights? In those series, the males ARE heroes who the readers hopefully want to succeed. I'm not SURE, but I believe you've countered this argument in the past with the idea that yaoi does not portray actual gay relationships (again, it may have been someone else on one of your threads), and I think that unless Kishimoto somehow does a better job of it in his Shounen Jump Weekly slot of action manga then it won't increase awareness. As a matter of fact, it may even turn people OFF to the idea because it was forced on them so suddenly.

Like, my friend who likes Naruto with me, her dad's super conservative, and he watches the show when it's on. I think that if that was tossed on him suddenly at the end...he'd flip and get all Up In Arms Conservative about it.

This leads me to my next scary thought...

What if the yaoi/yuri subcultures became the new big THING? Like, what if the media had absolutely NOTHING BETTER to rag on that week so they decide "hey, there hasn't been a comic-corruption-of-the-youth story for a while. What can we get on comics?" "There's this yaoi thing." "...And?" "It's about homosexual relationships." "Cool! We'll slot the controversy for the news at seven!" *shivers* It would be like the 40s and 50s all over again as far as comics and impact on the youth is concerned...

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

You know, I honestly do not think Naruto/Sasuke would have an awesome redemption arc - I think it would be another example of 'you should always forgive them and be BFFs again without even getting an apology from the person'. That said, I think it would be good for having positive examples of gays in the media.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

While historically Japan was more leniant with regards to homosexuality, it was homosexuality within VERY strict rules - like, you screwed with your samurai teacher as part of your learning and then you went off and married a nice girl for teh babiez.

Also, how would this be any different from those arguments that say yaoi/shonen-ai increases awareness about gay rights?

The different would be that Naruto ISN'T gay erotica - it would be a shonen manga with gay characters, which, as someone in the comments can have a hugely positive impact.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I disagree. Think how often we're given clues that hetersexual characters like the opposite sex - looks, behavoir, past history.

If a character's sexualulity comes completely out of the blue, with rare exceptions I call bad writing.

Re: Sorry if my thoughts seemed to be scattered right now.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I think the parents would freak but it would do the kids good. Because having a character they love and relate to be gay would probably help them think of gays as people.

[qualapec.livejournal.com]

Yes, but I also felt that there was a fair number of crossover. If you were a noble or a Samurai, you could stick it ANYWHERE and people didn't particularly care. It was my understanding that nobles could have wives, concubines, and male lovers all at the same time and it wasn't uncommon. I always thought that male Monogamy was a mostly western invention.

While I could see the benefit in it coming from a manga that doesn't exist strictly for the purpose of having gay guys as central characters, I still think that's also the strongest argument that the shock would turn more people off to the idea than it would rally them for gay rights. They aren't expecting it in a Shounen Jump, and would therefore be surprised and react badly.

NOW, what if there were side characters that were gay and accepted by the populous? That way, it could be worked in slowly and at the same time demonstrate how those characters are accepted by the rest of the Ninja world. People could come to accept the idea, without it being thrown in their faces like a huge statement (while it would be an important statement, sometimes people respond badly to having morality shoved down their throats). Like what's-his-name and Olma in Tamora Pierce's Bloodhound? Not exactly main characters, but portrayed in a healthy, loving relationship and accepted by the general population and hero characters. Do you think that would have just as big of an impact, perhaps even a more positive one as the two heroes getting together?

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Like what's-his-name and Olma in Tamora Pierce's Bloodhound? Not exactly main characters, but portrayed in a healthy, loving relationship and accepted by the general population and hero characters. Do you think that would have just as big of an impact, perhaps even a more positive one as the two heroes getting together?

Yes and no. I think having secondary characters in loving, healthy homosexual relationships is great... but I think it's just as important to have gay character in starring roles in books that are not 'gay fiction.'

[mistaria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it would be great if it could be.

It actually makes me think of this fic I read once where homosexuality was the norm and the main male character was supposed to be getting married but has this affair before the wedding with a woman. I'm pretty sure they were in love, but at the very least they figured out that they were straight and that was the forbidden fruit in this AU. She tried to convince him to not get married and he said there wasn't any other choice. It was good. I wish someone would make a film like that. I think it would help put things in perspective for a lot of people (or hopefully it would).

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Homosexuality often does come completely out of blue because unlike straight people, gays tend to hide it, both in real life and fiction. The reason I say the author did it right if it "comes out of the blue" is because most of the time? The character's sexuality has no bearing on the plot whatsoever, so there was no reason to highlight it.

I think there are two different points to this.

First, yes, gay people often hide their sexuality - but that is HUGE character trait. Sexuality is a large part of who someone is - if a character was hiding something of that magnitidue, as a reader/viewer I would want to see hints of that, because it's a large part of who they are.

Secondly, most of the time, sexuality - ANY sexuality - does not have any baring on the plot. But we see a lot of it because sexuality is both a signicant part of our pysche and because (most of us) are interested in it.

I'm not saying there should be anvils dropped that 'oh, character X is gay' but I'd either like to see their sexuality getting the same respect and attention that straight people's sexuality gets on tv.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

That would be a really nice reversal.

[qualapec.livejournal.com]

I would agree that it would be PREFERABLE to have heroes that happen to be gay. But what is your definition of gay fiction? It seems the most tactful way of doing it would be to have a hero that's homosexual from the beginning, but if that qualifies as gay fiction then that defeats the purpose of getting the message out to a wider audience. It seems like a fine line between having that and pulling a Willow, which is what it would remind me of if Kishi suddenly made Naruto and Sasuke gay for each other.

Just to make things clear, I totally agree that we need to have a wider variety of people as heroes in popular stories, I'm just trying to sort out the way to do it where it would be most effective in a positive way.

Re: Sorry if my thoughts seemed to be scattered right now.

[devimelete.livejournal.com]

Haha, that's probably a good thing, as I am talking from personal experience here. I remember vaguely on how my parents didn't start to talk to me about homosexuality when I was twelve or thirteen, but when I turned fifteen or sixteen, they started to talk about same-sex marriages. They weren't promoting it, but they weren't bashing it either. They were basically neutral on the homosexuality in general, though my mom pretty much hammers anyone in the workplace who makes homophobic slurs to her co-workers and her staff, and goes on her "fire the asshole" when involves the patients, especially if its one of her own staff workers.

Although, I think I wouldn't have been so active of gay rights, or at least be neutral on the subject itself it wasn't for the fact that I've been surrounded by friends and acquaintances who were bisexual or gay, or who were very supportive of gay marriage. Which is a bit of a miracle, considering I live in the Deep South.