This Was Too Good A Question To Answer Anonymously

[redbrunja]

Okay, over on the Naruto what-if meme someone asked the question, "What if Kishi actually decided to make Sasuke and Naruto a couple at the end of the manga? Would fandom explode? How would this be seen by different cultures/the media (Naruto is a fairly popular manga)? Would this affect the way kids veiw gay couples at all?"

My instinctive thought was 'they wouldn't get it.' I think a lot of the casual, non fandom readers of Naruto would be REALLY confused and I would bet money on the American and Japanese parents flipping the fuck out.

However, what I'm pondering is whether or not having Naruto and Sasuke being gay for each other would change some children's perceptions about homosexuals. Would it make them more accepting? Would they start to see gay people as human beings who deserves the same rights everyone else does?

You thoughts, flist?

Comments

[anat-astarte.livejournal.com]

I'm very curious to know other people's thoughts on these as well, especially since the US fanbase in my area include college age fans- who were talking about 'Naruto' and the backstory on Team 7 on a campus I visited today! :DD

I almost couldn't resist the urge to poll them about their thoughts on the latest chapter XDD

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

That may be a clue about which college to go to!

Sorry if my thoughts seemed to be scattered right now.

[devimelete.livejournal.com]

Well, it hard for me to say. I mean, kids weren't really allowed to see anything about homosexuality when they were younger, right? Like that time when there's two lesbians being mentioned in that PBS cartoon show Arthur some years back. Huge backlash, even though the lesbians were barely there for like a few seconds. I think parents try not to let their kids know about homosexuality as long as possible and silently condemned it without being really explicit about it at the same time. So when these kids grow older, they don't see gays as people with rights, just these freakish, shadowy Others, y'know? Weird stuff that their parents dislike and condemn, even though they (the kids) don't really know what homosexuality is about because they were never allowed to be exposed to it in the first place.

So will it make a difference with the target audience? Hard to say, when the parents are either keeping the idea of homosexuality in the dark or condemning it or both. I think it just cause more drama. While Kishimoto seems like to add some homoerotic undertones with Sasuke and Naruto, I don't think he has the bearings to make it out and open. It seems he has some conflicting views on sex and sexual orientation itself and doesn't want to pursue that angle.

Re: Sorry if my thoughts seemed to be scattered right now.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I think the parents would freak but it would do the kids good. Because having a character they love and relate to be gay would probably help them think of gays as people.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

You know, I honestly do not think Naruto/Sasuke would have an awesome redemption arc - I think it would be another example of 'you should always forgive them and be BFFs again without even getting an apology from the person'. That said, I think it would be good for having positive examples of gays in the media.

[nenena.livejournal.com]

However, what I'm pondering is whether or not having Naruto and Sasuke being gay for each other would change some children's perceptions about homosexuals. Would it make them more accepting? Would they start to see gay people as human beings who deserves the same rights everyone else does?

Yes. Absolutely.

This isn't just my opinion, but SCIENCE! says so.

I wrote one of my undergraduate capstone papers on this very topic, actually - how media representations of gay and lesbian characters influence children's beliefs and attitudes toward homosexuality. Long story short, there is a LOT of very tight research devoted to this topic, and in general, any time kids are exposed to heroic/good characters who also happen to be gay, it has an enormously positive influence on their acceptance of homosexuality, even when their parents and/or religions teach them otherwise.

[devimelete.livejournal.com]

there is a LOT of very tight research devoted to this topic, and in general, any time kids are exposed to heroic/good characters who also happen to be gay, it has an enormously positive influence on their acceptance of homosexuality, even when their parents and/or religions teach them otherwise.

Wow. I had no idea.

[anat-astarte.livejournal.com]

Hi, I'd love to see the research since it pertains very much to my interests. Got links? *pretty please!*

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Thank you for bringing in the facts! And that is so awesome that such small things can have such a huge positive impacts.

(On that subject, have you ever read Hot Target by Suzanne Brockman? It's a mainstream military romance novel with a heafty gay subplot that lasts through several books and apparently a lot of people have used it to break the news to their parents/reassure their kids that they're gay/they still love them.)

[mistaria.livejournal.com]

Or would it make them start calling each other "fags" from an even younger age? I think it might depend a lot on the parents. When I was 13 I remember some idiots who didn't even know what homosexuality was making fun of it or saying things against it because of things they'd heard from their parents. So if the parents were against it and there was a big outcry I could see kids who weren't even fans of the series making fun of their peers who did enjoy it.

I don't really trust either society (Japanese or American) to react in a positive way to such an ending, even though it would be excellent. Maybe I'm not giving people enough credit but in these matters I tend to always expect the worst from people since I've seen it so many times.

The only way I could see it working out well would be if the characters had been established as gay from the beginning (though not necessarily delving into that). I can see a lot of parents having problems with the whole "experimentation" line of thought that would surely come up.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I think the societies in general would react horrifically to homosexuality in Naruto... but I think on an individual basis, it could be a huge force for tolerance.

[kalliel]

I think it would be difficult to think of Naruto and Sasuke as real people in the first place. Most of their depth/worth exists exclusively in fandom, IMHO, so I doubt their being gay would be all that thought-provoking. It would either be "okay, who cares?" or "what the fuck????" But then, this might just be unwarranted pessimism, because I'm still :EEEEE at Naruto for the Leaf Splitting arc and the Pein arc, and :EEEEE at Sasuke for, uh, well. Whatever it is he's being doing. So it's hard to imagine them being perceived as a force for social change.

Depending on the age of the child, though, I don't think they'd make the distinction between Really Good Friends and Gay Couple (or Het Couple and Friends, for that matter. I didn't, and often still don't). Even if there was A Kiss. I guess it's hard to judge from my perspective, though, because my parents and my family and most of my friends don't categorize relationships that way. (The one who does would likely just chalk Naru/Sasu up to especially amiable platonic love.)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Regardless of my problems with Naruto as a whole, I don't think of Naruto or Sasuke as 'less real' than the majority of other fictional character, whether I love them or not (there are a few exceptions).

Depending on the age of the child, though, I don't think they'd make the distinction between Really Good Friends and Gay Couple

I could see the bottem end of the age not getting it - but I think the majority of the readers would get it.

[qualapec.livejournal.com]

I could very much see American parents flipping out, although I was under the understanding that Japan has traditionally been more lenient towards male homosexuality (don't know about female, though). I remember on the History Channel once that Samurai and noblemen would often take male lovers in addition to their numerous wives and concubines. The program was "The History of Sex" or something like that. That led me to believe they didn't look at it as taboo the same way western cultures did. Yes, they have culturally restrictive tendencies, but I think they are restrictive in a different way. American parents would blow a fuse, though.

On the reaction to it from a reader standpoint...this really is an interesting question. On one hand, I feel that part of the reason that Naruto is so popular is because little boys see their hyperactive, goofball selves in him and want him to succeed because of that. They relate to him. I think they could relate to him considerably less if it turned out he was gay. These statistics may be wrong, but I believe that only 10% of the population is homosexual. Sure, the homosexual readers would be able to relate...but as a series capper it would leave a lot of people with this feeling of ".......ooooookay...." and then they'd go do something else.

However, mostly I think you're misunderstanding the apathy of tweens and teens. I don't think most of them CARE enough to look at the final page for longer than a minute before putting it behind them forever. They don't ANALYZE. It's entertainment. It's a rare fan that comes along that looks at the series with a great deal of love and depth. Often, it doesn't SEEM like those fans are so rare on the internet...but in RL I encounter more apathy than attentiveness. Not counting the fandom or the female readers who already love yaoi and started the shipping, I honestly don't think it would impact that many teens and tweens. For those that it DOES impact, it might be a huge turning point, but most people won't care.

Also, how would this be any different from those arguments that say yaoi/shonen-ai increases awareness about gay rights? In those series, the males ARE heroes who the readers hopefully want to succeed. I'm not SURE, but I believe you've countered this argument in the past with the idea that yaoi does not portray actual gay relationships (again, it may have been someone else on one of your threads), and I think that unless Kishimoto somehow does a better job of it in his Shounen Jump Weekly slot of action manga then it won't increase awareness. As a matter of fact, it may even turn people OFF to the idea because it was forced on them so suddenly.

Like, my friend who likes Naruto with me, her dad's super conservative, and he watches the show when it's on. I think that if that was tossed on him suddenly at the end...he'd flip and get all Up In Arms Conservative about it.

This leads me to my next scary thought...

What if the yaoi/yuri subcultures became the new big THING? Like, what if the media had absolutely NOTHING BETTER to rag on that week so they decide "hey, there hasn't been a comic-corruption-of-the-youth story for a while. What can we get on comics?" "There's this yaoi thing." "...And?" "It's about homosexual relationships." "Cool! We'll slot the controversy for the news at seven!" *shivers* It would be like the 40s and 50s all over again as far as comics and impact on the youth is concerned...

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

While historically Japan was more leniant with regards to homosexuality, it was homosexuality within VERY strict rules - like, you screwed with your samurai teacher as part of your learning and then you went off and married a nice girl for teh babiez.

Also, how would this be any different from those arguments that say yaoi/shonen-ai increases awareness about gay rights?

The different would be that Naruto ISN'T gay erotica - it would be a shonen manga with gay characters, which, as someone in the comments can have a hugely positive impact.

[the-sun-is-up.livejournal.com]

Okay I am REEEEALLY out-of-it right now due to a) being sick and b) taking the wrong cold meds by accident. However I really want to answer this question! So if this is unintelligible, just ignore it. :FFF

My first instinct would be to say that non-fandom people would be really confused by Naruto/Sasuke turning out to be a romantic relationship. HOWEVER my own personal experience begs to differ. When I started shipping NaruSasu, I had never shipped any slash pairings (except as crack/for-the-lulz), my hoyay-detecting goggles were nigh nonexistent, and if anything I actually disliked slash because I found yaoi fangirls so irritating. But even with all of that, I was still like "HOLY CRAP THESE GUYS ARE REALLY GAY FOR EACH OTHER. ... *brain breakage*"

I think some confusion might come from how Kishimoto has made a big deal out of the traditional love triangle of Naruto -> Sakura -> Sasuke. People might be like "hang on a sec, isn't Naruto supposed to be in love with Sakura? wtf?" However even that was mostly a Part 1 theme. The thing I keep coming back to is that this ENTIRE manga, the core theme has been Naruto and Sasuke's relationship and more recently, Naruto's growing obsession with bringing Sasuke back. Sakura has all but become part of the wallpaper.

Re. Japanese fans: I think they'd be less confused than American fans, just because shounen-ai is such an established genre in Japanese lit and so they're used to having teh ghey pop up in their fiction. What would be confusing is a shounen-ai relationship showing up in a fighting shounen manga like Naruto. That would be hugely revolutionary, would totally screw with the genre conventions and how things are Supposed To Be Done, especially since Naruto and Sasuke don't at all follow the Seme/Uke archetypes, and actually I would have so much more respect for Kishimoto if he took that subversive a leap.

Re. American fans: Since we have so few gay relationships in media, I think it would make a lot of people's brains explode from shock. Parents/Moral Guardians would have a field day. The fanboys would be in denial. There would be wank. I would be deeply amused.

Re. changing kids' perceptions about gays: Absolutely it would. Even if they were also subjected to their parents ranting about Teh Ebil Ghey, the kids who've been reading this manga have grown attached to these characters and have come to see Naruto and Sasuke as three-dimensional people just like you and me. And to have such characters turn out to be gay makes the kids go "oh, gay people are people too." It'd be especially influential (and revolutionary, at least in this country) becuase Naruto and Sasuke don't fit any of the usual gay stereotypes we have in this country. They weren't labelled right off the bat, either explicitly or by hints, and so they really are "just people like you and me." Who just happen to be gay.

Aww man, now you're making me wish it would actually happen. Which I doubt it will, but then again, I've given up on trying to read Kishimoto's mind. He be trippin balls.

THE END OF THIS LONG AND INCOHERENT COMMENT.

[anat-astarte.livejournal.com]

The thing I keep coming back to is that this ENTIRE manga, the core theme has been Naruto and Sasuke's relationship and more recently, Naruto's growing obsession with bringing Sasuke back. Sakura has all but become part of the wallpaper.

Yes, this! Also, shippuden!Naruto hasn't expressed all that much interest in anyone butSasuke, even post-confessions Y/Y?

That's why, if it ever actually happened, it would so totally make sense.

I especially love that Sasuke has never seemed to express any romantic interest in anyone either let's ignore his obsession with Itachi. Part of me wants to see a resolution to the whole Sakura/Sasuke and Karin/Sasuke issue to finally know what his deal is there, especially if he once entertained the idea of resurrecting his clan. XD

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Your thoughts are basically my thoughts.

Honestly, the massive brain-breakage and the killing of two ships I dislike (Naruto/Sakura, Sasuke/Sakura) makes the idea of canon Sasuke/Naruto SO DAMN APPEALING.

I'm so sorry you're sick - you sound like you have a nasty, nasty bout of it.

[strange_quark]

I'm of two minds.

On the one hand, I find the Naruto and Sasuke dynamic--and really, pretty much any relationship Sasuke has--to be fraught and borderline obsessive and unhealthy. So if they do end up gay for each other, I would not view it as a positive portrayal of homosexuality.

On the other, any portrayal is probably better than the erasure that homosexuality receives in our heteronormative culture.

I'm kind of with you on "they wouldn't get it," too. I'd have to buy the build-up. As of right now, Naruto has canonically only been shown to be sexually attracted to women (Sakura). Not to say that I couldn't buy him turning out to be bisexual or even gay, but the story would have to make me believe it. But that's not me with my sexuality-issues hat on, that's me with my I-want-a-good-story hat on.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Naruto and Sasuke being gay for each other is something whose quality changes based on which direction you come at it from.

Because Sasuke/Naruto? Is not really LESS healthy than Sakura/Sasuke (I would argue more, frankly) or even Sakura/Naruto.

So.. let's let the homosexual relationships be just as fraught as the het ones?

[rabidline.livejournal.com]

I doubt that it will create a huge positive feedback (sorry, just not too optimistic) but I think that it would raise acceptance and respect in children for homosexuals.

Based on personal experience: I got exposed to CLAMP early on. Their work, although most of them are subtext- do contain official same-sex couples; no outright kisses, but it's pretty much there and can't be denied. I got used to the concept that people can have romantic relationships with other people in the same gender, and it's not wrong, per se.

I'm saying this because my religion specifically forbid same-sex relationships, and in my country the concept is still frowned upon- respect and acceptance for gay people are very low. But I guess- you can't help it- if it's love, it is. Maybe it's not my way of life, but there are others who chose it, it's their right and it doesn't make them any less humans than straight people are.

Sorry I can't help much :)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I'm really glad that Clamp was such a formative author for you.

Your comment was very helpful.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Is it cynical that I'd worry about kids taking the same bad lessons from Sasuke/Naruto that they take from many het couples in manga? Particularly the cultural obsession with dom/sub roles and how those are characterized dangerously in some manga/anime romantic relationships. I think they'd take the patterns and roles just as much as the gender concepts, and that might be unfortunate.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

*I say this because like someone said above, I can't see it being a healthy portrayal of a relationship if Sasuke's involved-- at least if he's at the current age & mental/emotional stage he's at for most of the Naruto canon.

If other characters in the show, less dysfunctional characters, were show as homosexual, that would probably be a good thing in expanding basic awareness.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I think the anime might shy away - but I think Tokyo Pop would release it, and while there would be epic drama around cutting/not cutting out Teh Gay, I think it would expose a lot of people to the idea that people they like and relate to might be homosexual.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I agree.

I think having children be exposed to positive gay characters and learning that characters that they already love are gay would be a great way to help combat homophobia.

[mochalatt3.livejournal.com]

Hi, I'm the OP who posted that prompt. By some very strange coincidence I ended up finding this page! I'm really glad that the prompt started some form of discussion, I wasn't really expecting a fic other than crack showing fan girls freaking out and having major nose bleeds lol. It's awesome that your flist talked about it at such length though!

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I'm really glad you managed to find your way to this journal! I hope you enjoyed reading other people's comments about your fic idea.