Christmas Is All About The Loot, Everyone Knows That

[redbrunja]

So, the whole cultural switch from saying 'Merry Christmas' to saying 'Happy Holidays' has come up on my flist a couple of times lately.

It's reminded me that I find Christmas to be more of a secular, national holiday than a religious one.

My question for you, dear flist, is 'does the growing secularism of Christmas make it more inclusive'?

Because my instinctive reaction is 'yes' but it is still called 'Christmas' and it's not like days that are important for other religions are turned into national holidays.

Comments

[silver-spotted.livejournal.com]

I don't know if this helps judge inclusive/not-inclusive, but in the last couple of years my mom has started making a big point of saying she's a *cultural christian*, meaning that the cultural traditions of christianity - christmas as a big family & presents event, appreciation for carols & messiahs & other christian-themed music - are celebrated, without the religion component.

on the other hand - we're singing a song in (the secular community) choir this year called "christmas presence" which has the line "would there be christmas without christ" so I think the Christian meaning of christmas is still very present.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

in the last couple of years my mom has started making a big point of saying she's a *cultural christian*, meaning that the cultural traditions of christianity - christmas as a big family & presents event, appreciation for carols & messiahs & other christian-themed music - are celebrated, without the religion component.

This is kind of how I grew up too - lot of the christian trappings, but they are more family traditions instead of religious ones.

which has the line "would there be christmas without christ" so I think the Christian meaning of christmas is still very present.

Also, I'm quite sure a lot of christians are resisting the secularization of Christmas as hard as they can.

[ivy-chan.livejournal.com]

I think of Christmas as a religious holiday first and foremost. I won't say you can't celebrate it secularly, but since it's a Christian holiday, albeit with Pagan trimmings, I still count it as religious. I don't think you should strip the religion from someone's holiday- at least recognize the fact that it's a celebration of the birth of Christ. (It would be like me going: "Hey, I want to celebrate Hanukkah/Diwali, except for without that Jeiwsh/Hindu thing.)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Good point.

[zeldabel.livejournal.com]

For me, Christmas is about the birthday of Christ. I don't talk about being a Christian much, just because I keep my religion private. But I celebrate Christmas as a birthday.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Thanks for commenting. ^_^

[nenena.livejournal.com]

Yes and no.

I survived three Christmases in Japan and one in China, where it was celebrated as an almost purely secular holiday, and it really didn't feel any different to me than the Christian holiday that I grew up with. Also, my dad's side of the family is Jewish, but my dad grew up celebrating both Christmas and Hanukkah. I believe that the justification for this was, as my grandparents put it, "Santa Claus is too awesome of a thing to not do."

So clearly, there are a lot of people who feel comfortable celebrating Christmas as a secular holiday, in which case the secularization of Christmas is definitely more inclusive.

However, I don't think that the holiday will ever be completely divorced from its religious meaning, which means that it should still never, ever be enforced upon anybody who chooses not to celebrate it.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I believe that the justification for this was, as my grandparents put it, "Santa Claus is too awesome of a thing to not do."

WORD.

However, I don't think that the holiday will ever be completely divorced from its religious meaning, which means that it should still never, ever be enforced upon anybody who chooses not to celebrate it.

Absolutely not. And I really think we need more non-christian holidays turned into national holidays.

[qualapec.livejournal.com]

Well, on one hand it is a Holiday with Christian origins (yes, 'duh'), but the fact that it replaced pagan holidays makes it more inclusive to me. I can celebrate winter because most Ancient European societies have some sort of winter celebration. I think it's a very general thing, and even people who are really just mouthing it in can get happy around the holidays.

Also, even from a strictly religious standpoint, I feel that the spirit of Christmas is generally calmer than other vibes I get from the religion. The "you're gonna burn in hell" thing seems to tone down around this time of year and it becomes more about love and peace on earth, which I can totally get behind no matter where it's coming from.

*smiles* Maybe I'm biased because it usually involves presents and cake...

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Also, even from a strictly religious standpoint, I feel that the spirit of Christmas is generally calmer than other vibes I get from the religion. The "you're gonna burn in hell" thing seems to tone down around this time of year and it becomes more about love and peace on earth, which I can totally get behind no matter where it's coming from.

This is very true. It's almost like Christians are focusing on the teachings of Jesus!

*smiles* Maybe I'm biased because it usually involves presents and cake...

Trufax.

[the-sun-is-up.livejournal.com]

I would say that yes, it has become more inclusive. I've known plenty of Jews, agnostics, and atheists who celebrate Christmas simply because the customs are so much fun, even though they have no interest in worshipping Christ. Plus, so many of our Christmas traditions have little or nothing to do with Christianity. I mean, a guy in a red suit with a white beard flying around in a sleigh drawn by reindeer? Putting a live tree in your house and decorating it with popcorn? Singing a song about partridges in pear trees? Etc etc.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I would say that yes, it has become more inclusive. I've known plenty of Jews, agnostics, and atheists who celebrate Christmas simply because the customs are so much fun, even though they have no interest in worshipping Christ

This doesn't surprise me at all.

mean, a guy in a red suit with a white beard flying around in a sleigh drawn by reindeer?

Who was, to boot, popularized by Coca-Cola.

Putting a live tree in your house and decorating it with popcorn?

TOTALLY A PAGAN TRADITION.

[mistaria.livejournal.com]

Considering the fact that Christmas is at the time of year it is because it was meant to transition Pagans into Christianity (and thus replace Yuletide) I feel like it is inclusive. I don't consider myself to be Christian but my family is so we all celebrate Christmas. If we didn't and if they weren't Christian I would still celebrate Yuletide in the same way. I mean, I wouldn't go to church if not for my family and that's really the only traditional Christian thing we do. The tree and the lights and the celebrating were all originally pagan things. I'm not totally sure on presents but hey... :p Who doesn't like to give and receive? And I am an excellent present buyer.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Who doesn't like to give and receive? And I am an excellent present buyer.

Yes exactly! I am not really a procrastinator, but still, I end up buying/plotting christmas presents before Thanksgiving has passed simply because it's such a fun thing to do.

[blackestfaery.livejournal.com]

I'm the same as zeldabel. I still decorate my house with a Christmas tree because I think it's beautiful, but there is a distinct lack of Santas anywhere in our house during this season.

I say Merry Christmas and don't get offended when someone chooses to say Happy Holidays to me. It's such a small thing to worry about, and it's definitely something that wouldn't push me to shove my faith down someone else's throat.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

*nods*

[chomiji]

Well, it doesn't make me feel more included. All the trappings are still Christmas - originally pagan, yes, but the associations for the vast majority of people are Christian.

And I certainly don't expect people whose traditions include Christmas - whether they themselves feel those customs are Christian or not - to forgo their special things because I'm not celebrating that holiday. I used to go to my Quaker friend's house for her tree trimming party. I made ornaments to bring, and I had a blast. But I didn't want to have a tree at my house. That isn't my custom or heritage. The reverse is true as well: you can come to my house for Hanukkah and I'll feed you potato latkes and be glad you are there, but I don't expect you to bless the Hanukkah candles.

The problems come for me when official government organizations and services support Christmas customs, when government (in the U.S., anyway) is supposed to regard all religions as equal. On the other hand, lights and things look festive, and who wants to be a Grinch? So my feelings on this are very mixed. I like it when a town or some similar government entity sponsors a menorah that is lighted by a Rabbi or some Jewish schoolkids - because that says to me "Yes, we know you're out there, and your customs are appreciated and accepted too" - but I don't think it needs to mix in with some pan-holiday display.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

The problems come for me when official government organizations and services support Christmas customs, when government (in the U.S., anyway) is supposed to regard all religions as equal. On the other hand, lights and things look festive, and who wants to be a Grinch?

I feel very similarly. Part of me feels that the only fair thing to do is to make MORE national holidays of other religious faith's holy days, but part of me goes 'wow, that could become so impractical so fast.' How do you pick which holidays to make national? Would it start screwing with the amount of time students are in school, etc?

Randomly, I would love to come over to your house for patato latkas.

[tobu-ishi.livejournal.com]

*grins* I vote for Holi. And Tanabata, though even in Japan you don't get time off for that one. ♥

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I vote Holi!

And wow, the story that goes along with Tanabata is so sad.

[tobu-ishi.livejournal.com]

You'd never heard of it? Parts of it remind me a lot of Pirates of the Caribbean.

You know, though--the actual celebration of Tanabata is way fun. You get to decorate a stand of bamboo stalks with paper chains and folded decorations and things, and write a wish on one, and the celestial lovers will supposedly grant it.

One year, my mother wished to lose ten pounds, my father wished for a wooden boat, my middle brother wished that his wonked-up video game would start working, my youngest brother wished my middle brother would go bald, and I wished for a great exchange experience in Japan the next year.

My mom lost the weight, my dad finally found the boat of his dreams that year (a little Ed Monk), Calum's game sorted itself out and he got a horrible too-short haircut at a salon by accident not long after, and my year was fantastic. So. XD

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Now that you mention it, it really does!

My mom lost the weight, my dad finally found the boat of his dreams that year (a little Ed Monk), Calum's game sorted itself out and he got a horrible too-short haircut at a salon by accident not long after, and my year was fantastic. So. XD


Wow, that is CERTAINLY a great example of why we should adopt this holiday!

[tobu-ishi.livejournal.com]

Go, Tanabata, go! :D

(Also, the decorations are really pretty. Have you seen "The Girl Who Leapt Through Time"?)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Yes I have! That was a good movie.

[tobu-ishi.livejournal.com]

One of Chiaki's memories of the times the three of them spent together has them walking along, carrying a bunch of bamboo covered in folded colored paper, remember? That's Tanabata. :D

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I don't remember, actually, but I'm sure you're right. If I give it a rewatch, I'll have bonus context!

[tobu-ishi.livejournal.com]

Hooray, bicultural bonus! ^^

[meitah.livejournal.com]

I don't feel that Christmas is more accessible to me, personally, but I'm an atheist Modern Orthodox Jew. I think there's definately a blending of different cultures' winter solstice holidays, if only for the sake of consumerism. For instance, America is the only place where any emphasis is placed on gift-giving for Hanukah. Everywhere else in the world parents will give their kids some chocolate or a little more pocket money than usual.

But let's remember that Christmas itself is the result of the Catholic Church absorbing pagan religions and practices. (Well, technically all of Catholicism is, but whatever.) People take ideas and rituals from other groups all the time.

I think that for completely non-religious people, Christmas is a catch-all holiday to celebrate. But for people who are strongly tied to an ethnic or religious community, I think that certain practices are being adopted, but their original holidays are still being kept.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I think there's definately a blending of different cultures' winter solstice holidays, if only for the sake of consumerism.

Very true.

But let's remember that Christmas itself is the result of the Catholic Church absorbing pagan religions and practices.

We do. ^_^

[meitah.livejournal.com]

*shrugs* That's actually not common knowledge. People don't like to think of religions as growing and changing entities, but they are. What became the Catholic Church grew by converting and assimilating gentiles and gentile religions into what had been a branch of Judaism.

And all relgions are to this day evolving. Catholicism and Protestant groups today are very different than they were even fifty years ago. Hell, Judaism today is radically different from what it was fifty years ago. The shift to all mid-winter holidays becoming more alike is not unprecedented in the least. Religions and their rituals change as quickly as societies, and in roughly the same ways.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Really? I guess I learned that Christmas is celebrated then because that was originally a pagan holiday and they wanted to convert people so young that I'm surprised when people DON'T know that.

[meitah.livejournal.com]

It certainly isn't taught in any Sunday school. It's not something religious Christian folk want to advertise. "Hey, you know all those pagan religions we condemn? We adopted, like, all of their practices when we converted their followers with a bastardized version of our big guy's teachings. But that doesn't mean they're any less wrong or we're any less right."

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

*snerk*

You're right. Assuming that is a well-know fact is a privilege of a liberal upbringing.

[meitah.livejournal.com]

Indeed

[sureasdawn.livejournal.com]

This is actually something I trained myself to do - saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", because the bookstore I work at has a very large base of Jewish customers as well as university students from around the world.

Also, I'm an Atheist, so I don't actually celebrate the religious holiday even though the rest of my family does. I do like the associated festivities and gift-giving, so while the activity is purely a secular one for me, I decorate and put up a tree and such because it's fun.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I do like the associated festivities and gift-giving, so while the activity is purely a secular one for me, I decorate and put up a tree and such because it's fun.

Same. Christmas is a non-religious, family holiday for me.

[sureasdawn.livejournal.com]

I also really love singing Christmas carols - which kinda sucks, because a lot of the prettiest ones are the religious ones and I have a hard time singing "round yon Virgin etc etc". I went to a Catholic school for about three years and it definitely left its mark - I renounced all gods and religion by the time I was twelve.

You know, it's funny how many stories involving or about Christmas are about people who don't want to celebrate it (Scrooge, the Grinch) being converted overnight and are suddenly towing the party line. I think there's a lot of pressure on people to at least fake enjoying the holidays whether they actually do or not - lest they are called a 'Scrooge' or 'Grinch'. I know at least one person who wishes we could just fast forward to January because there is nothing in it for her.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I also really love singing Christmas carols - which kinda sucks, because a lot of the prettiest ones are the religious ones and I have a hard time singing "round yon Virgin etc etc".

I TOTALLY feel your pain on this one.

I went to a Catholic school for about three years and it definitely left its mark - I renounced all gods and religion by the time I was twelve.

Ha! Oh, I don't think that was the result they were looking for.

You know, it's funny how many stories involving or about Christmas are about people who don't want to celebrate it (Scrooge, the Grinch) being converted overnight and are suddenly towing the party line.

Oh, wow... you're right. That is kind of incredibly creepy, now that I think about it.

[sureasdawn.livejournal.com]

Oh, wow... you're right. That is kind of incredibly creepy, now that I think about it.

I think my favorite Christmas story right now is from an episode of Blackadder, where they basically rewrite "A Christmas Carol" where Edmund is Scrooge - only instead he's good and pleasant and giving, and the ghost of Christmas comes and visits anyway (blind drunk) and shows him that his future would be better if he were a bastard.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

That is WAY more likely to be accurate than the traditional tales.

[cynchick.livejournal.com]

I'm a non-Christian who celebrates Christmas (very informally) as a holiday to exchange gifts with people you care about, and I'm ok with that because I know that the tradition of gift giving far predates Christianity.

But for the most part, I think secularizing/genericizing Christmas is problematic, because it's a clear case of Christianism - the assumption/expectation that everyone should either be Christian or follow along with them. Even if we don't believe, we have to live in their world and celebrate their customs (which are actually pagan customs that they stole way back when). So yes, it's more inclusive, but I don't think that's necessarily a GOOD thing because it marginalizes the rest of us.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

But for the most part, I think secularizing/genericizing Christmas is problematic, because it's a clear case of Christianism - the assumption/expectation that everyone should either be Christian or follow along with them. Even if we don't believe, we have to live in their world and celebrate their customs

Agreed. I'm pondering if enough Christ has been taken out of the holiday to make it secular enough to not be skeevy, and I think the answer to that is ''no."

[digthenym.livejournal.com]

I'd have to say more inclusive. Maybe it's just because religion in society as a whole seems to be less and less influential as time goes on, or maybe it's because at least in my experience that Christmas has become less associated with Christianity and more with spending time with the family and showering people with presents and cheer and food.


...then again, there's also the fact that everytime I say 'Happy Holidays' at work I get a religious pamphlet. I suppose it really depends on where you live, and who you interact with.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

...then again, there's also the fact that everytime I say 'Happy Holidays' at work I get a religious pamphlet. I suppose it really depends on where you live, and who you interact with.

Yeah, I think the answer to my question is 'sometimes it's less secular and more inclusive, sometimes it isn't.'

[(Anonymous)]

Well, in Mexico is a lot worse.

We celebrate the "Virgen de Guadalupe"'s day on december the 12th (there is places where the day is given free), Christmas day on the 25(Navidad o Natividad), "Día de los inocentes" on the 28th, New year's eve (december 31) and the first day of the year (january 1st), the day of the Three wizards and how they gave gifts to little Jesus on january the 6th (here we eat some sort of big donut with little jesus' dolls inside... if you get one doll you are going to be lucky all the year... and because of that you have to give a party on february the 2nd)......

On those dates, it's advertised (in tv), to go to the church...

And, on christmas is "national" tradition to give (in schools, where the education must be religion-free), "pastorelas", (representation of how Jesus was born, and how the devil is bad and the angels are the coolest beings).

At least, in your country they consider all christian's, in México, because our history, people just consider "catholicism" as the "standar".
In tv shows, people is always catholic and pray to the "virgencita"... (We made a remake of the nanny, in which Fran Fine and everyone were Catholics)...
it makes me sick.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

That sounds really annoying - having so many holidays in which Catholism is EVERYWHERE and it's just assumed you're catholic.

And remaking television shows so that the characters are catholic? I get suspicious of people who seem THAT afraid of showing other religions.