redbrunja | Crazy What You Could've Had

Will Turner.

(will do back and forths if you want)

1.) Not boring.

2.) More attractive than Jack Sparrow, especially after the first movie.

3.) A better match for Elizabeth.

For you: Elizabeth Swann.

yes, yes, and yes

1. Not a hussy, and not a Mary Sue.
2. Too good for Will or Jack. (kinda directly related to 1...)
3. Never had romantic feelings for Jack, just wanted to get to Will and was attracted to the freedom.
4. Would have been happy with Norrington if she'd never met Will.
5. Would have murdered Jack within 2 weeks. A month if they found the perfect combo of run, sex, and raids.

For you: Logan Echolls

Total word.

I've love more elaboration on #2... why isn't will quite good enough for her?

4.) Oh my god yes. Especially if he ended up taking her with him when he went off (lots of officers wives traveled with their husbands.)

5.) Now I'm picturing Sparrow desperately fingangling things so that she doesn't ever not have enough rum and action to keep his skin intact.

Logan:

1.) Isn't quite good enough for Veronica.

2.) Brought a lot of his problems on himself.

3.) Could me a much better person than he is if he got his head screwed on straight, and he's smart enough that he should know this.

TWo is simply that, from a logical standpoint: boy would her life have been simpler otherwise, and a knee jerk reaction to all the "Elizabeth isn't good enough for Will/Jack" ranting(also, lets face it...in most aspects, she's probably always going to be a level or two beyond him...he keeps her grounded and she keeps him from getting killed by the hero complex.)

1. I wish more people shared our opinion of this.
2. I agree with but forgive 2, as a lot of it stems from being screwed since birth.
3. Agreed. I think though, that he's kinda scared to be a good person. Lets face it, the people he knows who are supposed to be good people, who actually are? KEITH. And...KEITH.

Next: Duncan Kane.

TWo is simply that, from a logical standpoint: boy would her life have been simpler otherwise, and a knee jerk reaction to all the "Elizabeth isn't good enough for Will/Jack" ranting(also, lets face it...in most aspects, she's probably always going to be a level or two beyond him...he keeps her grounded and she keeps him from getting killed by the hero complex.)

Oh, word. I have the same thing with Katara. At this point, that girl could fly Zuko alive and then heal him back up, dropkick Aang off a cliff and smack her brother around, and I'd be like, 'she was totally in the right and they all loved it.'

Duncan:

1.) Just because Duncan was dull as dishwater doesn't mean that Teddy Dun is a bad actor.

2.) I think he loved his sister a little too much - it's a bit creepy that Veronica looks so much like Lilly, and with the real stuff that happened with the idea of Veronica literally being to him....

I have the same thing with most female characters, honestly. (Err...not that I exactly hide it well...) Seriously, even characters I don't care for, I have a bit of that sentiment for. Like, Relena in Gundam Wing? One of the extremely rare occasions where I actually understand the hate, but even so, I wouldn't blame her if she accidentally opened the airlock on Heero and/or Zechs, after the grief they put her through. (Really, conceptually, she's a good character and the Heero/Relena pairing had enormous potential in the almost-enemies-as-lovers arena, but the execution was so amazingly fubar that I can't even say they're good but poorly written.)

I'd mention that only poor little Aang got the lethal treatment, there, but, well...he'd be fine(unless he was too busy watching the pieces of his poor little heart fall around him to remember this isn't really a problem for him.)

I think i'm glad I never looked into the VM fandom beyond my f-list. They're all far too mature and levelheaded to blame an actor. As much as I dislike Duncan, I thought Teddy Dunn did a great job, especially in season 1, where you never knew WHAT was in his head, or how sane/insane he was, and most of that take was him, not the script. I think there was definately a "little too much" in Duncan's love for Lilly, though not to the degree of incest, as I'm told some fans take it. I tink, though, that at least some of that was more Lilly in general. EVERYONE is amazingly hung up on her...Duncan, Logan, Weevil and Veronica all almost have her on a madonna-like pedestal, even though they all know better. I think she was just someone who hugely influenced everyone around her, especially those who needed someone. I also think that the whole "distant/uncaring parents/cheating father" thing had the opposite affect on them as it did on Logan and his sister...instead of alienation, codependency, but a codependency I think she was growing out of faster than he was.

Oh, word. I watched episodes 1-5 of Gundum Wing with slashers, and they were merciless about Releena. (Which, granted, she would have and sort of did annoy me to death, but the fact that they're getting all uppity about her sanity while Hero is trying to kill himself and sucking at it....)

Aang's may have been more lethal, but Zuko's hurt more.

I think there was definately a "little too much" in Duncan's love for Lilly, though not to the degree of incest, as I'm told some fans take it. I tink, though, that at least some of that was more Lilly in general. EVERYONE is amazingly hung up on her...Duncan, Logan, Weevil and Veronica all almost have her on a madonna-like pedestal, even though they all know better.

Well said. And what's great about the actress they hired is that (imho) she was vivacious and charismatic enough that you don't look at the characters and go, 'why did you all like her? are you all stupid?'

I am uppity about both Heero and Relena's lack of reason, sanity, and interesting traits in general, beyond the opportunity to mock his emo and suicide attempts, though he is interesting from a psychological perspective. Really, though, Relena aside, a lot of the female characters in GW are pretty awesome. Even Relena and Heero/Relena have elements for awesomeness, it's just that the execution is FUBAR beyond belief.

They took Lilly and took all the elements usually used to make you hate a female character and instead of crucifying her, made her awesome, and then hired a good actress. I was sad they couldn't figure out a way to work her into S2(but, you know, it made sense that they couldn't...)

*nods*

Gundum Wing... doesn't work for me on many levels, and I think a large part of that is the general insanity and the tight focus on five male pilots. If have the mecha pilots where female, I'd probably be over it like white on rice.

*nods* That's one of the things that made Veronica Mars so awesome; how violently flawed the characters were, and how we loved them anyway. And you have a really good point, that on any other show, Lilly's character would be Veronica's in school nemisis, instead of Logan.

yeah...that's a problem with GW. It has a lot of cool female characters in a variety of roles-Noin(military commander, pilot) Sally(military officer turned rebel) Une(also military commander, but also politician) Hilde(pilot) Catherine(acrobat) and even Relena(politician) it's just that they're all secondary roles. Yeah, there's a military focus, but...well, it's a military show.

Yeah, but just because it's a military show doesn't mean that it isn't incredibly noticable in an ensemble cast like that when all the women are in secondary roles, and all the people placed in prominent roles are boys. That is the kind of gender dynamics that made me think all anime sucked from age 8-19.

Actually, I was referring to the fact that the roles were all military, not to the secondary part.

The GW series...is for teenaged boys. Sad but true.

(And speaking of gender issues, I've started watching S9 of Stargate SG-1 and oh, the difference between it and SGA. Yeah, tyhere are still issues...but it still handles it so much better.)

Yeah and teenaged boys and me... there is not really a lot of cross over in likes.

(I'm glad to hear that SG-1 is handling gender better - although honestly, it would be hard to be worse.)

Well, to be completely fair, SG-1 benefits from the fact that it started with a small cast, and it made Sam both a soldier and a genius. There was also no "living up to" aspect. SGA was in the position of having to create a male lead that was a good follow up to Jack, and...well, the best way to show your lead is cool is to have him stand up to authority and be the right one. (See my Starbuck problem.) The Stargates seem to have a serious love for the military, and a need to show it as being better than anything else. Sam's in the military, Weir and Teyla...aren't. They also seem uncertain about what to do with a woman in charge, hence the FUBAR-ness of the gender politics in SGA. I noticed it a bit in s8 of SG-1, with Sam in charge of the team, but it wasn't bothersome there because the "woman in charge means she gives advice and they may or may not listen" was a situation where she'd been their best friend and second in command for 7 years already, so it was more like "we all think the same now anyway," and there was already the established dynamic where Daniel and Teal'c would automatically follow her lead if Jack wasn't there, and "group decision instead of direct order" makes sense when there's 7 years of being near equals behind it. She was, though, still much more clearly in charge than SGA made Teyla or Weir, and there was never really a situation where her authority was challenged, not even by Jack(but then, she pretty much owns him anyway.) (Also, SG-1 writers seem to be very in love with Sam, SGA writers seem to be very in love with Sheppard.) I'm curious to see how S9 plays out. Sam was gone from the early eps because Amanda Tapping had a baby, so there's a new guy leading SG-1, and I actually don't know who leads once she comes back(if you know, that's one thing I don't really mind being spoiled for.) That said, he was wanting to serve under Sam, not lead the team, and has an obvious case of hero worship for her(and I suspect a crush, too.)

Really, though, I think I'm pretty much just trying to make excuses for SGA in hopes that it'll get better later, because I do adore Teyla, and I greatly anticipate the very pretty man with dreads, and, well...I know Sam joins the cast later on, and the sad thing is that I love her enough that I'll probably tolerate anything for her.

*nods* Those are all good reasons for why it has such skeevy gender politics - but they're still there, and I know personally, I have no desire to watch SGA - my bloodpressure can't take it.

Also, I think a large part of the problem is that not only are the writers in love with Sheppard, they're in love with McKay, as well, so you have them going, 'we don't know how to deal with these women - but look over here! We have two of our favorite fantasies; the one where we're a handsome denonoir pilot and the one where we're such a genius it doesn't matter how much of an ass we are!'

And I'm being pretty critical - I don't mean to hash your squee at all. And frankly, putting up SGA's problems for Sam is completely reasonable to me.

For gods sake, I have the feeling I'm going to be watch BSG again, and lord knows I don't even have an excuse.

Oh, trust me, unless you say mean things about Teyla, there's pretty much no SGA squee to squash. SGA is definately also in love with McKay. The funny thing about McKay is that, after his first couple episodes in SG-1, I actually really liked him. But in SGA...ok, honestly, there's a huge difference between a guy you like despite his being an ass because he has good qualities, and a guy you're supoosed to like because he's an ass. It's like how I pretty much hate the "manslut because of angst" characters...mansluts just are not appealing, and making an unappealing trait a supposed appeal doesn't work for me. There are characters I can like in spite of that, like Gojyo and Yukimura, but they're always far from my favorites. I do better when they're just mansluts, but you like them anyway. It's more honest, and it's again a case of liking a character despite his flaws, not because of them.

Sheppard...honestly, in season one, he was just a cheap knockoff of Jack who was supposed to be the greatest thing ever, and wasn't. The actor did a good job of trying to separate them, but the script bogged him down. The thing about Jack, though, that they missed with him, is that while Jack has authority issues, he does RESPECT authority, unless authority proves itself worthy of disrespect. Sheppard just says "Screw you" to any authority, and then they try to say he's right about it, even though he's wrong, and they have to undermine Weir to do so. Also, quite frankly, he caused half the issues in S1 and often made deals he had no authority to make, putting Weir in impossible positions, but it was suppsed to be her being wishy washy and his being right, but we weren't supposed to notice that.

Honestly, based on the 2 1/2 eps of SG-1 S9 I've watched, everything they did wrong with him, they're doing right with Cameron. Cameron thinks for himself, and is still the "all american military superhero" the SG writers love so much, but is more grounded and aware of boundaries. He actually feels like the younger Jack he and Sheppard are both supposed to feel like, but sans the snark(well, he snarks, just not as much) and with a healthy dose of hero worship.

I think putting up with ANYTHING for Sam is reasonable.

BTW, since I remember you asking before: I like Vala a good bit, though I'm not sure yet what I think of Vala/Daniel. Most of their scenes so far make me think of squabbling five-year-olds, though there are a couple scenes that make me think there's potential if the writers ever have them do anything besides bicker and have her annoy him. Actually, in all honesty, while I'm fond of Daniel, he's my least favorite member of SG-1's OT4, and I actually prefer Jonas Quinn to him. I do like him, but his arrogance often makes me want to smack him upside the head.

Crazy What You Could've Had

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