redbrunja | There's A Woman Inside Of All Of Us Who Never Seems To Get Enough

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There's A Woman Inside Of All Of Us Who Never Seems To Get Enough

Okay, so I haven't done the last two week's fannish5, because two weeks ago, my answers to the question (Five reasons you only get into one fandom at a time - or - five reasons you are multi-fannish") just didn't parse nicely into five answers, and this week's (Name five imaginary places you would like to go on vacation) frustrated me, because honestly, the places I'd like to go would require me to be printed with special skills to not die.

So, I'm making my own questions and posing it to you.

So, flist, tell me five of your bulletproof kinks in storytelling.

I talk about a lot of them here, but I'm going to give you five more, to start the ball rolling:

1.) Nakama.

2.) Gender-reversals. Everything I'm really digging right now has some nice gender reversals deep in the text.

3.) Complicated father-daughter relationships. (See, Jack and Sydney Bristow, Keith and Veronica Mars, Noah and Shiloh from Repo!) This ties into the idea of gender reversals. So many author just focus on the whole father/son dynamic.

4.) Glasses. Especially hot, dark hair guys with glasses.

5.) Romance with an equal. I like contrast between two people in a pairing, but I also want them to also be equals in some kind of root way. Zuko and Katara are actually a really good example of this. Despite their sociocultural and (initial) nationalistic differences, they're very similar in a lot of deep ways (importance of family, the ways they decide to protect their family, a total disrespect of other people's property....)

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1) Nakama. (Totally)

2) Verbal sparring. If there is a pair of characters massively snarking at each other, I will be shipping them by the end of the episode.

3) Chicks in boots. Hot, knee-high boots.

4) Booksmart/streetsmart combo. Think Bones and Booth. Bonus points if the girl is the streetsmart one.

5) Mentor/student relationship. It's naughty, and it's hot.

2) Verbal sparring. If there is a pair of characters massively snarking at each other, I will be shipping them by the end of the episode.

Yes.

3) Chicks in boots. Hot, knee-high boots.

So. Much. Word. There is nothing like a pair of fuck me boots, imho. For example, I have so many boots that I can't buy more at this point (although my mom just told me that she's stealing one pair, so, excuse for more!)

5) Mentor/student relationship. It's naughty, and it's hot.

This is going to sound very, very wrong, considering what a fucking huge Kakashi/Sakura fangirl I am, but honestly, normally I don't go for mentor/student relationships. Speaking of, you need to write more Kakashi/Sakura.

* Nakama is a big one for me, but I really love the focus on *partners* (and not necessarily in the romantic sense). See: Mulder and Scully, Xena and Gabrielle, etc.

* Crossdressing heroines. This is a plot kink, not a sexual one, or something I want to see played (just) for laughs. I like what a good crossdressing series says about gender, and society, and relationships. See: Mulan, Coffee Prince, and on the lighter side of things, Ouran and Hana Kimi.

* I don't like stories about the central character's children, but I *do* like the reverse. I love children discovering more about their parents' pasts. See: Flora Segunda, Alias, Avatar.

* Stories that play with memory, history, and identity (on a personal scale, or larger).

ETA: And girls who kick ass. This can often go into fanservice territory, but I'm okay with that so long as the girl is tough, and awesome, and more than *just* a sex object.

Edited 2009-04-26 11:28 (UTC)

Crossdressing heroines.

I adore this. Probably from reading Alanna: The First Adventure at an insanely impressionable age. But anyway - nothing gets me like the epic hair freeing, "I am no man," scenes. *grins*

I don't like stories about the central character's children, but I *do* like the reverse. I love children discovering more about their parents' pasts. See: Flora Segunda, Alias, Avatar.

*nods* Agreed. In a similar vein, I like it when children AREN'T lying to their parents about what they're doing at night - one reason I initially liked Bleach was how honest Ichigo was with his family.

ETA: And girls who kick ass. This can often go into fanservice territory, but I'm okay with that so long as the girl is tough, and awesome, and more than *just* a sex object.

Word. Hot chicks kicking ass is fanservice for both genders and all sexual orientations, imho.

I adore this. Probably from reading Alanna: The First Adventure at an insanely impressionable age.

I'm just about to start a reread of Alanna. *g*

I like it when children AREN'T lying to their parents about what they're doing at night

Yes! I like mutual respect between parents and children. That's one reason why I can't stand sitcoms; there's no respect between *any* parent/child combinations (whatever generation they come from). It's deeply off-putting.

Hot chicks kicking ass is fanservice for both genders and all sexual orientations, imho.

This comment made me think of your recent Naruto posts. Hot chicks being dangerous is--on the most shallow level--visually appealing. "Shonen is for boys" doesn't mean that boys can't appreciate a kickass woman, even if it's only for the hot factor.

Yes! I like mutual respect between parents and children. That's one reason why I can't stand sitcoms; there's no respect between *any* parent/child combinations (whatever generation they come from). It's deeply off-putting.

That, and fat, lazy, men have insanely beautiful wives (who are also smart yet incredibly shrewish).

"Shonen is for boys" doesn't mean that boys can't appreciate a kickass woman, even if it's only for the hot factor.

EXACTLY!

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1. Bad ass females with attitude. Particularly girls like Jun, Faye Valentine and so on.

WORD.

Distant, serious male (or female) characters with difficult pasts.

You know, while I can handle and often like this for girls, I HATE this for boys (Yuki, Mytho). I'm just bored with it. To me, Zuko is WAY to passionate to be considered distant.

3. Romance with an equal is a plus for me too. If I feel that a pair are not equals, or have no chance at becoming equals I will not ship it

*nods*

4. Strong, disabled characters who suffer for their handicap, but still manage to have a strong role in the plot. This is why I love characters like Teo and Toph (although I don't talk about Teo as much as I should.)

Agreed. I was so disappointed in Dark Angel with Logan got his legs back.

^^; That's really funny - I actually did one of these last year. (http://ryanitenebrae.livejournal.com/27348.html) I completely agree with. . .every last one of these, really. My big thing for romances is partnership, though, and I prefer my romance to be somehow plot-based. Gender reversals are very good, but need to be done very, very well in order to be pulled off.

*scurries off to read*

Honestly, and maybe it's because I have so many that I like, gender reversals don't seem that difficult to me.

It's kind of old, just so you know. I may do a follow-up to that sometime later, as my media intake has definitely improved in the last six months and I could probably be more analytic and come out with more examples in that respect.

Okay, maybe it's just that, for me, it's not that it's hard to do so much as. . .well, define.

For example. I am writing a story with a female protagonist that goes through a transformative journey, so to speak. The primary male character has a largely passive role in the story, and is responsible one simultaneously huge and small action at the very beginning that essentially acts as a catalyst for the whole story, but afterwards, does not in any way actually effect the events.

Is this role reversal? To say that it is would be to say that by definition the female has the passive role and the male the active, and I am, by writing the story, reversing those and making a statement about gender. But I'm not - this is just how the story forms organically in my head.

To say that it is would be to say that by definition the female has the passive role and the male the active, and I am, by writing the story, reversing those and making a statement about gender. But I'm not - this is just how the story forms organically in my head.

But in a larger context, men are typically given the more active role and females the more passive. So while it is great it it organically forms in your head as male/passive, female/active, I would call it role reversal.

I dig a lot of the ones you guys listed, particularly glasses(rawr), father/daughter relationships, nakama, mentor/student relationships, and gender reversals. Most of mine tend to be character-based.

1. Tough characters who are unexpectedly, endearingly awkward when it comes to romantic relationships. (One of my favorite shoujo manga tropes)

2. Ugly Duckling characters, in the context of action/adventure stories. Meek, seemingly weak characters with inner strength that develop into strong heroes without losing their essential character.

3. Witty, sarcastic bastards make me weak in the knees, both intellectually and sexually. Male or female, hero or villain, I'll read or watch something just for one of these characters.

4. Closely related to #3, 'smart' villains that actually act smart by doing stuff like manipulating the heroes into doing their dirty work for them.

5. Romance with equals; or rather, to push it a bit further, romantic clashes of the titans, particularly of the villain/protagonist variety. I find the romantic power struggle between two strong-willed characters to be fascinating. Also, the smut is usually smoking hot. (Bonus: if one/both are #3 and/or #4, I probably ship it hard.)

Tough characters who are unexpectedly, endearingly awkward when it comes to romantic relationships. (One of my favorite shoujo manga tropes)

Yes! I love it when big bad tough guys just... fail at talking to girls.

Ugly Duckling characters, in the context of action/adventure stories

Honestly, I like the more traditionally ugly ducking characters, where you get that nice makeover montage.

Witty, sarcastic bastards make me weak in the knees, both intellectually and sexually.

This depends - sometimes I'm weak in the knees, sometimes I just want to kill them.

Honestly, I like the more traditionally ugly ducking characters, where you get that nice makeover montage.

I have to narrow it down slightly because there's always been something that bugs me a little bit about ugly duckling characters when it comes to more romantic stories. The ugly duckling character is a great person, quirky, smart, etc. but nobody really pays attention to them until they're pretty. The makeover bits are fun, but the subtext tempers my enjoyment somewhat.

This depends - sometimes I'm weak in the knees, sometimes I just want to kill them.

Yes, I suppose I don't always find them sexy per se, but they're almost always interesting. I'm usually quite fond of 'love to hate' type characters. For a Harry Potter example, I've always liked the obnoxious, cowardly canon!Draco over the sexed-up, leather pants fanon one; he's such an entertaining little jerk in the books. :)

The ugly duckling character is a great person, quirky, smart, etc. but nobody really pays attention to them until they're pretty. The makeover bits are fun, but the subtext tempers my enjoyment somewhat.

There is that factor, which is both unpleasant but also very realistic.

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Partnership/Loyalty/Nakama. Loyalty is one of those storytelling tropes where it can be so bad when done wrong (see: Twilight), but when it's done right, I will love it like nothing else

Agreed. There is something about those people who will always stand by those other people that just makes something so deliciously epic.

Sometimes tying into the above, and sometimes not, really good villains. Villains who are intelligent, human, and win sometimes. That's one thing that bugs me more, even, than cardboard cutout villains- when the Forces of Evil never, never win and by the Final Battle there is absolutely no suspense because I don't honestly believe they can do anything. I love storytellers who give their baddies some victories.

So much word for this. It's why I adore Avatar and Soul Eater and while I always rooted for Team Rocket back when I was watching pokemon.

Crossdressing! For all of the very good reasons that have been stated above, when I'm thinking about it- and otherwise just because it's hot.

For me, this usually works best female-to-male, but male-to-female can be fun too.

5) Master/servant dynamics. Another thing that can be really bad when done wrong, but amazing when done right. I like it when there's a strong enough bond between the master and the servant that the power dynamics start to blur- particularly if the servant is the more capable/powerful of the two (see: FFVII again, and Vassalord).

Are you reading Fumi Yoshinaga already? She has a definite fondness for doing twisty and uncomfortable-but-compelling things with relationships with big power differentials, including master/servant pairings -- and she'll then throw in so many additional twists of age differences and quasi-familial relationships that trying to figure out just who really has the most power gets incredibly blurry.

(Mmmm, Vassalord. *licks yummy Rayflo icon*)

I share many of these with other commentors.

1. "Opposites attract" pairings.

2. Verbal sparring is never not fun.

3. Tough guys who're awkward when it comes to relationships. Quite possibly THE cutest thing ever.

4. Strong female characters. Whether it's Orihime-tough or Integra-tough, I need my BAMF ladies.

5. Epic girl friendships. Nothing warms my heart more than girlbonding. ♥

2. Verbal sparring is never not fun.

So true.

4. Strong female characters. Whether it's Orihime-tough or Integra-tough, I need my BAMF ladies.

Agreed. However, I've found that I also need a variety of strong females in a show - like, if they're just Orihime-types, it feels like a default and not an honest strength.

5. Epic girl friendships. Nothing warms my heart more than girlbonding.

*nods* Great point.

However, I've found that I also need a variety of strong females in a show - like, if they're just Orihime-types, it feels like a default and not an honest strength.

Oh, I definitely feel you there... It annoys me when it feels like it's an excuse to have her sitting on the sidelines while the boys get to do the cool stuff.

*nods*

1. I like humor in stories. And it doesn't have to be crackish or over the top. IRL, I've noticed that humor and sorrow usually go hand in hand and I can't stand reading something that is story-length (however long that may be) without a few bright spots in it.

2. Going in the same vein, I traditionally am a sucker for happy endings. Doesn't have to be neat, or tie it all up, but I typically WANT to see the good guys come out on top. I don't like dismal finales- bittersweet is fine, but the horrible bleak ones make me cringe.

3. Friendship. I will fangirl over BFFs more than romantic realtionships anyday.

4. Interesting, varied roles for both genders. I want to see a guy who can perform a triple bypass surgery, a chick who can make bombs, a boy who's ultra religious, or a girl who's an aloof genius. Total bulletproof kink is the subversion of gender roles, or twists that are put into it.

5. I LOVE subplots that tie into each other to make one giant, all-encompassing storyline. I usually don't want a story to be focused on one main character and that's that. I like big casts of varied characters <3

1. I like humor in stories. And it doesn't have to be crackish or over the top.

Agreed. Honestly, I DON'T like crack - it usually just feels ooc and not honestly funny. But when the humor is organic and comes from the characters, it's AWESOME.

And I am a totally HEA-addict. I can handle a mediocre happy ending much better than a good sad ending.

4. Interesting, varied roles for both genders. I want to see a guy who can perform a triple bypass surgery, a chick who can make bombs, a boy who's ultra religious, or a girl who's an aloof genius. Total bulletproof kink is the subversion of gender roles, or twists that are put into it.

So much word.

And can you give me an example of #5?

Crack can work sometimes, but only if it's used sparingly or ALL THE TIME (the crack!manga Bo-bo-bo comes to mind for the latter)

And I am a totally HEA-addict. I can handle a mediocre happy ending much better than a good sad ending.

YES. It can be the most moving, significant, literature ending but I'm still in desperate need of some warm fuzzies.

As far as an example for number five, the first one that comes to mind is the New Jedi Order series. It has its flaws (oh GOD does it have its flaws, mainly due to the fact that it was written by several authors and it's very rare that they can agree on characterization) but it creates a HUGE cast of varied characters, each of them having their own role of importance in aiding a war against invaders, and the plots often overlap and connect and at times it is the most skillfully handled storytelling I've ever seen. /could gush about Star Wars forever.

YES. It can be the most moving, significant, literature ending but I'm still in desperate need of some warm fuzzies.

I'm the same way.

I absolutely share your #2 and #5, as we've discussed before. "Romance with an equal" is pretty much essential for me to truly like a ship. They don't have to have the same status and skills; it's more that the story shouldn't treat one character like they're superior to their other half, there should be opportunities for both to display their particular fields of competence and rely on each other's strengths, they should both get chances to save each other, etc.; and the characters absolutely have to respect their partner as an equal, even if they're in a setting where the societal default is that one of them is from a devalued class. Without that sense of respectful equal partnership, I can't ship it and I can't bring myself to care that the author wants me to. (Even my fondness for enemy pairings I think overlaps that in a large way, since the progression there is from repeated conflict -> growing mutual respect for a noble, skilled enemy -> attraction)

And "gender reversals", I quite like, although I think for me that's more of a subset of deep love for subversion of stereotypes in general. I really, really love it when a story doesn't go for any of the lazy expected defaults of "if you're this sex/race/age/etc. then you must be written like this", or when a Genre Savvy writer plays with your expectations to tweak a seemingly predictable storyline into something wonderful and unexpected, or goes along the expected plot arc from Point A to Point B, but gets there in a unique way. This is a big part of why I loved how Lirael tweaks the Unhappy Orphan Finds Real Family And Magical Destiny archetype, or Saiyuki where the characters with the usual heroic traits are the antagonists, while the "heroes" have the sort of vices and flaws that are usually assigned to the villains of a piece.

Other than those two, hmm. #3 would I think be first-person narratives, if they're exceptionally well done. Bad first-person is excruciating, and mediocre-but-competent first doesn't do anything special for me. But once in a blue moon, there'll be something written in tight first where the character's voice is so distinct that it just lives and breathes, and I finish the book feeling like I've gotten to know a real person on an intimate, almost telepathic level, as well as I know myself; finding one of those is a rare and irresistible thrill. (Peter Hoeg's Smilla's Sense of Snow and Joan Vinge's "Cat" series would be two of my biggest examples here.)

For #4, I'd say a sense of grounding in depth of culture and history. Tolkien was an absolute master of this, Dune did it well enough that I still love it despite its flaws, Courtship Rite is the most recent thing that's pushed this button for me; a lot of other SF and fantasy, though, tries to do this by just throwing around a lot of "As you know, Bhob" infodumps or tons of supplemental materials, but this is the sort of thing where IMO if it's done right you'll get that sense of all this weight of history just from the allusions people make seamlessly in the text, even if you never turn to the appendices.

And for #5, another of my biggest long-running narrative kinks is portrayal of alien cultures/POVs that are truly alien. This can be literal non-human extraterrestrial life forms, or supernatural creatures, or intelligent animals or sentient machines; or in a broader sense it can be human cultures, imaginary or historical, that are sufficiently distant in time as to be like writing another world. If your talking dog/computer AI/little green Martian reptiloid/immortal telepathic vampire/Neandertal cave painter/etc. looks at the world with the same attitudes, morals, and governing metaphors as an educated modern human from the First World, UR DOIN IT WRONG. If your character has a completely different body, life cycle, sensory apparatus, abilities, I want to see how it affects the way they look at the world. If your far future/distant past human character has no attitudes and beliefs that would seem strange or even slightly alienating to a modern sensibility, Do Not Pass Go.

They don't have to have the same status and skills; it's more that the story shouldn't treat one character like they're superior to their other half, there should be opportunities for both to display their particular fields of competence and rely on each other's strengths, they should both get chances to save each other, etc.;

*nods* Enemy pairings totally tie into this, because they're about two people both competing as equals and competing on the same field.

And for #5, another of my biggest long-running narrative kinks is portrayal of alien cultures/POVs that are truly alien.

I need to send you a link to this - because I've got a sci-fi story on a back burner and one things I'm currently tripping over is how to make the hero alien in both realistic, interesting, and consistent ways.

And would you mind talking about how Lireal tweaks the 'unhappy orphan' sterotype?

Edited 2009-04-28 07:29 (UTC)

I need to send you a link to this - because I've got a sci-fi story on a back burner and one things I'm currently tripping over is how to make the hero alien in both realistic, interesting, and consistent ways.

Oh, please do; that's absolutely the sort of thing I adore, and would be happy to brainstorm with you 'til the cows come home.

As for Lirael, I would have sworn I babbled about that a lot when I'd finished it, but it might have been to Megan or Cho so I guess I'm not repeating myself too much here. :) The classic version of that trope when you see it in a lot of fairy tales or genre fiction is the sort of thing you see in Cinderella, or the first Harry Potter book. You've got the unhappy misfit child who doesn't fit in, longs for a better, more exciting or magical life, a loving family, etc.; and in the usual happy ending versions, they get all that. The ugly duckling turns out to have a grand destiny or amazing magical gifts, they're reunited with their loving family or discover they're really a long-lost princess, etc., and everything ends happily ever after. It's a very Sue-ish/Stu-ish sort of childish wish-fulfillment fantasy -- you're not my real parents, I don't belong in this boring stupid life, I want to be SPECIAL and loved -- which is probably why you see so much of it in children's/YA fic.

But Lirael twists all of that around in very subtle ways. On the surface it looks like it's following the pattern to a tee -- she's the subject of prophecies, wonderful magical companions and tools fall into her lap, she discovers loving relatives she never knew when she was growing up, and she's the next Abhorsen, one of the most powerful and unique beings in her world. There's even hints of a developing future romance, total fairy-tale happy ending, right?

Except none of this is exactly what she wanted. When she was longing for the Sight, that wasn't a dream of being special and unique: that was a dream of being *normal*, just like all the other Clayr. And all of those magical, unique things that happen just reinforce that she isn't a normal Clayr and never will be. She discovers her grandmother is alive and is much warmer to her emotionally than her aunt ever was -- but the timing is such that she never really gets to build up a real family relationship there. She finds out who her father was, but he's already long dead. So it's not strictly an unhappy ending -- she has at least found her place in the world, friends and a potential love interest, and a sense of purpose -- but a little bittersweet nonetheless, because the things she got were not the things she always wanted, and they actively remind her that her deepest childhood wishes will never come true.

Okay, email sent.

And yeah, I remember you talking about this. Poor Lireal. Actually, now that you mention it, I bet her desire to be normal is one of the reasons that I connected more with Sabriel, who always knew she was different and accepted it.

*nods* And Sabriel I think was set up to have an easier time being different thanks to her upbringing -- she knows her background, she's growing up knowing that she'll be Abhorsen someday, and she's different from the caravan folks she's raised around at first, and then different from the girls in the boarding school over the Wall, but thanks to her father she still has a sense of place and continuity and belonging -- and the moving back and forth between different cultures that they've done throughout her life also helps to sort of normalize that sense of difference, if that makes any sense? She knows the world is bigger and more diverse than whatever subsection of it she's living in at the moment. Whereas Lirael, she's got the Gojyo thing going on where her very appearance instantly marks her as obviously different from all of the rest of her blood relations that she knows about, and she has no idea about the unknown father her looks take after; and I can vouch from experience that even in the best of circumstances where you're not being teased or called ugly, looking so drastically different from your family can be...an odd experience. And while she's adequately provided for physically, her emotional needs for a warm parental figure weren't being met, so she doesn't have that foundation for a secure sense of self that Sabriel did with her relationship with her father. Finally, growing up immersed as she did in a single rather insular culture, I don't think she got the same sense of relativity Sabriel did at an earlier age; sure, she saw the occasional visitors from other groups, but day in and day out her total cultural experience was the Clayr.

It could have been much much worse, of course; nothing in the books even seems to hint that there was any sort of teasing or cruelty based on her appearance or obvious "racial" difference, or being an orphan; and nobody ever even teases her about being a late bloomer where the Sight is involved. (Which was actually one of the little bits I found a little harder to believe, because kids are kids and even if the Clayr were blessedly free of deliberately cruel bullies, teasing happens, and it doesn't have to be mean-spirited or deliberately cruel to hurt, especially when the target is as insecure and sensitive as Lirael was.)

*nods*

Yeah, the lack of teasing is surprising - but her childhood is already SO HARD to read that I don't think I could have taken anything more than what we got. And I do like that she realized how sensitive she was - when she saw the body of the guy that was flirting with her, she talks about he meant to be kind, and she wished she'd spent some time with him.

I'm not sure how this works, is it like preferentials that we have when we read/watch stories?

A little bit more extreme than preferentials. Like, the story telling tropes that would keep us watching a show that's otherwise not very good or would make us read and like a fic for a pairing that you normally didn't like.

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I don't mean the same goals or anything, just on an agreement on the deeper stuff.

*nods*

That's it exactly.

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There's A Woman Inside Of All Of Us Who Never Seems To Get Enough

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