Slash & Het & Femmeslash

[redbrunja]

I had a whole bunch of friends come over for my belated birthday party, which was a blast. I'm really lucky in that my friends are friendly with each other, so if I step out for a minute I don't have to worry about anyone being left out of the conversation.

Only downside is that I'm super behind on comments, but that's a small price to pay. ^_^

And now, meta.

When people get to discussing slash and het (note: femmeslash is almost never mentioned in these discussions) there will be, at some point, at statement to the effect that 'slash and het are equally problematic' meaning that arguing that one is inherently better is pointless. The fact that neither genre is more feminist or subversive by default is true but what doesn't get mentioned is that het and slash and femmeslash are troublesome and empowering in different ways.

Before I begin, a few notes:

-no genre is quantitatively better or worse than any other. Romance novels are not less worth-while than lit novels, nor are they automatically written with less skill.

-every genre (especially in fanfic) is largely composed of horrible stories.

-not every story or fanfic says or is trying to say something subversive or culturally relevant. This is okay. Stories can be neutral. They can just be there to be PWP, they can just be there to watch the characters have adventures.

That said-

At its best, slash is both subversive and feminist, a genre written by women for women and comprised of narratives removed from the heteronormative culture standards.

At its worst, slash is misogynistic and forces blatantly sexist roles on the characters involved, while erasing and vilifying women and femininity. Additionally, it can be portray men in unrealistic and objectifying ways.

At its best, het is a way to celebrate relationships between equals as well as deconstruct and explore traditional and nontraditional gender roles. Also, it can be used to forfront forefront female characters who are often not given the same screentime as their male counterparts.

At it's worst, het supports sexist dynamics and glorifies the male point of view, as well as reinforcing the idea that all women must be in a relationship to be happy, that that The Man You Love > Everything Else In Your Life.

At it's best, femmeslash gives even more screen time and attention to the ladies and allows authors to explore issues that might feel unnatural or out of character for a male character to be party to. Additionally, because femmeslash is less popular within the fandom, I have noticed a trend for there to be more well-written fics when looked at proportionally.

At its worst, it objectifies women and supports the idea that lesbians do not get happily ever afters.
supports the idea that lesbian leads to death.

Your thoughts?

[ETA: I'VE EDITED THIS A BIT TO REFLECT POINTS THAT COMMENTATORS MENTIONED, TO CLARIFY SOME OF MY THOUGHTS, AND ADD THINGS I FORGOT.]

Comments

[qualapec.livejournal.com]

I actually spent most of the day thinking off-and-on about what you said in your last post on the topic. The 'Yaoi and Misogyny Bingo Sheet'.

I'm glad that you provide a fairly even point of view of how het and yaoi can be empowering but also can be used to subvert women. I can think of examples of both.

Although, a couple of things I think you don't touch on:

-The fact that slash/yaoi often portrays unrealistic and objectified males. The argument could also be made that, at it's worst, it devalues men the same way a two-dimentional female character devalues women; as sex objects instead of people.

-You make some good points about how femslash could be empowering...but I think you forget a few downsides to it. If yaoi can be misogynistic at it's worst, then femslash can be man-hating at it's worst. It's NOT a worm hole where matter can only travel one way. The very idea that one gender is excluded from a romantic relationship CAN be horribly abused. Just as easily as someone could write about two men who were driven to each other by a long line of women who are portrayed as horrible witches who used them, one could write a story about Amazon warriors that are convinced men are apes that are only good for reproduction and that real pleasure and understanding CAN ONLY be found in another woman. Basically what I'm saying is that things that are true for yaoi are going to be true at some point for femslash as well (you know...minus anything that involves a penis). There are right ways and wrong ways to write each, but I think they can be equally damaging when written wrong.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

he fact that slash/yaoi often portrays unrealistic and objectified males.

You're right, I didn't think of this.

Just as easily as someone could write about two men who were driven to each other by a long line of women who are portrayed as horrible witches who used them, one could write a story about Amazon warriors that are convinced men are apes that are only good for reproduction and that real pleasure and understanding CAN ONLY be found in another woman.

This is true. However, have you found that trope to exist in a significant portion of femmeslash? I know I didn't say this in my main post, but I was purposely writing about problems that I have seen in multiple fics, and in my readings of femmeslash, I've yet to come across it.

[qualapec.livejournal.com]

I could not speak to whether or not it exists in a significant portion of femslash, because I can count on both hands how many fics I've read in the genre. However, I've also been quite selective of my yaoi, and have not frequently encountered the problems you mentioned. When I have, it's generally in an original yaoi novel.

I understand what you mean about problems that are present in a multitude of fics. That makes sense. But I have a hard time seeing that yaoi is this snake's bed of misogyny but femslash is totally squeaky-clean in fandom with regards to misandry. One half or the other of that argument seems to risk generalization.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Well, I am speaking generally. I'm talking about the things that tend to rear up in fandom after fandom in the same genres. To that end, while femmeslash is just as capable of misandry as slash is of misogyny, you don't see man-bashing in femmeslash the way you see girl-hate in slash.

I'm not saying any genre is perfect, but the whole point of my post is that the problems in femmeslash, yaoi and het are both different and not neat mirror images of each other.

[lynnxlady.livejournal.com]

This is true. However, have you found that trope to exist in a significant portion of femmeslash? I know I didn't say this in my main post, but I was purposely writing about problems that I have seen in multiple fics, and in my readings of femmeslash, I've yet to come across it.

I have in fact seen this problem, though THANK GOD, not in a significant portion. But there was this one disgusting FFX-2 Rikku x Paine community where the posters believed that ok, maybe Rikku as a cute cuddly girl could be paired with men, but that Paine was way too butch and badass to *ever* pair with a guy. Because if a cool somewhat masculine woman is with a man, that's totally demeaning to her. There's no way they could be equals or even, she could be dominant (as she would totally be with Gippal or Baralai. If you even know what I'm talking about, LOL.)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

.....

I have no idea about who the specific characters are, but if I'm correctly following along with the character types...

Epic fail, fandom.