I Want To Sink My Teeth Into A Nice, Distracting, Meta Discussion. Who's With Me?

[redbrunja]

 Here are the answers from this meta meme.

ilikebigtoes  - Patti
 
why does she have to be so fucking annoying and dumb? I understand needing two pistols so symmetry can be satisfied, but surely there is some other character type they could have gone with besides hyper, violent, and mentally deficient. Liz is so much cooler. And sexier. When she's getting molested by wrappings it's actually legitimately sexy.
 
Patti, on the other hand, is this deranged, maniacal child and frankly, we already have Black*Star we don't need another.
 
So, sure, she's currently leveling up but if we were going to have a weapon transitioning to a meister, I'd rather see it be Liz (remember how awesome she looked aiming for Noah in that maid outfit?)
 
autumn_whispers  - Jennsen/Rahl
 
Okay, this is wrong on so many levels. They're related, for starters, and he's evil, to continue, and their main interaction was him lying to her when she had lost her memories.
 
But Jennsen is also the one person with whom we've seen the softer side of Rahl (the stuff about his father felt emotionally true, for example), and when she gives him a kiss on the cheek to thank him for getting her a cat, there was this stunned pause that showed how unfamiliar Rahl is with affection.
 
So in my head Rahl pretends to be a nice guy for Jennsen and Jennsen continually throws him for a loop with her genuine affection.
 
The interesting thing about Rahl is while the show has a no-female-redshirt policy (which sucks), Rahl actually treats the women under him (the Mord Sith) with more respect than the majority of the men.
 
Cara is clearly used to being treated with respect and equality, and Rahl's treatment of Denna dovetails (I presume) with how she expects to be treated by her sisters.
 
To return to Rahl/Jennsen, there is also the fact that she's pristinely ungifted, which makes her dangerous to Rahl, both because she had screw up his plots and because he can't use his magic on her.
 
tobu_ishi  - Doctor Horrible. (The character, not the overall musical.)

I am not convinced Billy would have been a good good guy. You want him to be one - if fact, that diss on Johnny Snow ("besides, there's kids in that park, so.") is a huge neon sign that he's a decent guy at heart.

But I don't know if he would be anymore competent as a hero as he was a villain (good plans, problems with the execution). And I think that is what Billy really, really wants - respect, recognition, attention.

Also, the people who say that Billy is rather stalker-y... have a point.

He is also the classic tragic hero who is damned by what he can't have. Bonus points for the epic-ness.

Hagi! nekohooch 

Hagi is one of the rare tall, dark, and brooding characters who work for me. I don't know why... maybe because Saya seems like she'd like someone who is tall, dark, and brooding?

Also, besides the epically Byronic dramatic-hair cello playing on top of buildings, he knows how to sword fight.

Plus, he's got that tragic doesn't-affect-his-prettiness demon hand and history with Saya's.... prior self? Is that the term? Anyway it's clear that they're going to be OTP, what with his brooding and Saya's big eyes and the whole feeding-Say-with-his-lifeblood thing.

Actually, both Saya and Hagi are so stoic that it's hard for me to get emotionally invested.

helicopini  - Okay, your topic is:

Amanda Marcotte's recent hypothesis that Twilight is popular with older women (who ought to know better) because it functions as a fantasy where a supernatural sex god (two in fact) obsess over a character who is meant to be a cipher for the reader's self. The core appeal of Twilight therefore is just motivating extremely desirable men to be obsessively in love with you to the point where they will do ANYTHING. It's a fantasy of being ultra-desirable even if you are just a mousy teen yourself. Therefore Edward's abusive behavior is beside the point, because it's just id fantasy anyway.

Agree/disagree?

Yes but.

First of all, thank you for getting me to go off and find out about Amanda Marcotte and read her blog.

Now, to get back to Twilight. While I think the Twilight's anti-rejection porn angel is one reason why it's so popular, I don't think it's possible to sweep under the rug just how bad Edward is as a romantic hero. While I have my problems with LKH, she had the exact same love triangle going on in her books. Why is that Meyer is so insanely popular while LKH is a more traditional best-selling novelist? Is it just that LKH has sex (and sex and sex and sex) and that Twilight doesn't? (tangent: I actually like Marcotte's thoughts on this, even/especially because of what that says about sexually active women in our culture.)

One thing that I will hear over and over by fans of Twilight, especially older fans, is 'it's just like being in love for the first time.'

Really? Really? Edward and Bella's relationship is what throws all your 'this is first love' levers?

Frankly, I believe that Twilight is so popular because it ties into hugely influential cultural beliefs about being a young woman and what makes young women desirable and sex (you can want it, but if you don't wait until you're married, you're a slut, and Twilight's fantasy take on this is that the author-cipher in question isn't the one who has to maintain her own virginity until marriage; Edward is doing that for her).

Twilight is also huge enough that I don't think there is one answer - I agreed with BOTH articles you mentioned, AS WELL AS helen_keeble 's points about Bella's domestic control and agency.

kai_lis  - Rue

Rue is awesome.

Her being evil is what got me thinking that there was something in Princess Tutu that was worth getting past the animators being unable to draw fingers. I love Rue's friendship with Ahiru and her belief she will never be loved. I love her elegance and her tolerance for emotional pain.

She is an odd choice to play opposite Ahiru. Ahiru is bubbly and clumsy and hopeful and the fact that Rue is placed opposite Ahiru with no personal animosity involved and without being punished for not being like the heroine is a nice move on the animators part.

Rue is the classic, doomed princess; metatextually, it's not a surprise she ended up with the Prince.


hungrytiger11  - Mary Russell

Ruined me for Sir Arthur Canon Doyle’s Sherlock Holmes. The Mary Russell stories just seem so much more interesting than Doyle’s mysteries. Holmes comes across as more human and more falliable and Mary herself provides a much more relatable pov character than either Watson or Holmes in the original novels. First, Watson’s sole purpose was narrating Holmes adventures and he didn’t seem like much of a character himself, and Holmes is presented as so brilliant that he’s hard to relate to. And then the masculine buddy cop dynamic has never grabbed me. Whereas Mary is a young English lady during the Great War (a trope that I have yet to get sick of) while also being a girl detective ( a trope that is even harder for me to get tired of).

obsessive0514  - The Southern Raiders

Zutara's big romantic episode.

You can have "The Headband" - in my mind, there is something epically romantic about the people who have your back in a fight and let you have the revenge you want.

I think Zuko was the perfect person to understand what Katara needed here; not just revenge, but the chance to making the 'wrong' choice. Now, I can get SO behind a well-deserved revenge in fiction but speaking within the narrative, I think that Zuko knows what it's like to make the wrong choice and have to deal with the consequences and also that sometimes in just don't LEARN simply from someone telling you what you should do. Plus, the rage in his voice when he was telling that Fire Nation officer to look in Katara's eyes.... he would have stood by while she killed the man who murdered her mother. If someone killed my mother, part of me would I'd want to date someone who would do the same for me.

neko_no_kaze - reasons why Katara is awesome

1.) because she's badass.

2.) because she doesn't let her gender stop her from learning what she wants to learn.

3.) because she never saw an injustice she could pass without trying to change it.

4.) because she holds a grudge.

5.) because she is the mother of the group for logical, non-possessing-a-uterus reasons

6.) because after burning her once, Zuko had to earn her friendship

7.) because she has the best fight scenes

8.) because she can go toe to toe with freaking AZULA.

9.) because she has a tragic past that affects her but doesn't control her

10.) because she can't tell a joke to save her life

11.) because she steal from pirates...

12.) ... and doesn't regret it at all.

meitah  - Cultural stereotypes in Naruto

Honestly, I think Sakura and Hinata are the shining examples of this. Hinata is the traditional, subservient girl who is brought forth as an example of a Good Wife and Sakura is the tsundere/strong woman who's weak enough not to be a threat.

While I like both of these characters greatly, I think that they are formed out of (what I would consider) negative stereotypes of Japanese women, at least when unleavened by the humanity other mangaka's will give their tsunderes or the spine of steel they give their Yamato Nadeshikos.

Also, he just doesn't love them the way he loves anything with a penis. If he did, Sakura would not get cock!blocked and would get more fight scenes, and after Hinata confessed her love to Naruto and got stabbed... something would have happened. SOMETHING.

xlovelylightx  - Reasons why Naomi Misora from Death Note is awesome, and why the show would have been so much better if she lived.

The author killed her off because if she had been around he knew there would have been no way he could have gotten to thirteen wall-of-text volumes of Light wanking about how much smarter he is than everyone else.

Trufax.

He's quoted as saying... approximately what I just said.

Additionally, once Naomi is gone, what female characters do you have? Obsessed, stalker, psycho Misa (who I kind of liked, but still) and Light's catatonic sister.

Now, I am not one to say all female characters should be paragons of feminism, but there is something MAJORLY wrong with your manga when the only female characters are shrieking or nonresponsive. Oh, I forgot for a moment - we have traitor as another option.

sureasdawn  - TV vs. Books vs. Manga vs. Film which are you trending to favor more and which has better female characters.

BOOKS.

Okay, time for specifics:

When I went to college, I basically went from watching at least a movie a week to watching one every three months or so, simply for time reasons.

Again, for time reasons, my free time was taken up with television shows (which give me more bang for my buck, character-attachment-wise) and the internet.

Recently, I have started craving books again, and stepping away from the computer to read.

As for which has better female characters, it is hands-down books. In ANY GENRE you can find multiple books with women in the lead role. For a period in my youth, I would not read a book if the main character was not female or if there was not a strong secondary female character. I was able to do this. And I never felt like there was a genre that I was missing out on because it had not ladiez. (Think about the last action flick you saw with a women in the lead role.)

Urban fantasy, for all it's problems, is at is core a genre by women for women about women being badass (yes, there are exceptions, I'm speaking in general terms).

Comments

[anat-astarte.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you about Hagi/Saya and Naomi!! And about Sakura and Hinata too- it really is amazing that the females in Naruto are so ..shortchanged, even in the most crucial moments.

[iki-teru.livejournal.com]

For a period in my youth, I would not read a book if the main character was not female or if there was not a strong secondary female character.

I completely feel you on this one. In fact, sometimes it's the lack of a believable female character that turns me off of a book.

[kai-lis.livejournal.com]

Utter word on Rue's awesomeness. Rue and Ahiru's friendship is one of my favorite relationships in the series; she didn't expect it, wasn't sure what to think of it, but she wanted it. And in the end, I thought it really felt like they'd been friends all along.

Rue's tolerance for emotional pain is interesting. She acknowledges it wholeheartedly. After a point she seems to almost expect it, accept it as part of her life, and try to get along with it. And she does manage. It's sad, but I thought she really took to the Depths of Despair--a lot better than Ahiru, at any rate. It really does show the strength in her.

And I agree that Rue was handled really well by the creators. They let her be what she is, which is both a deeply sympathetic person and someone who can fill the shoes of the villain. And there's never any apology.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

I think Dr. Horrible would best serve as a chaotic neutral character; working for the greater good, overall, but not always within the law, and not always in ways that are, y'know, sane. He's like a Spark born in the wrong dimension. He just needed the chance to attend school in a universe where they help you learn how to build death rays and such.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Continuing through the post . . . Twilight being like falling in love for the first time? I can buy. Keep in mind the kinds of fucked-up relationships teenage girls can get into because they find the dangerous guys hot. This appeals to both the ones who were rejected by the bad boys and the ones who got 'em; both felt they were the worst off, but both get to read a tale of a girl who won the bad boy and everything worked out perfectly fine.

The thing about The Southern Raiders is how it paralels Day of Black Sun; both Zuko and Katara confronted the men responsible for them growing up without a mother; both made a badass display of bending, making the point that they could kill the bastard, but they won't. Both needed that moment, even if, technically, nothing came of it.

[nimblnymph.livejournal.com]

HAGI! God, I love him. Only man I can think of who delivers a perfect "fuck you" with a cello. *sighs*

Admittedly, Blood+ IS a bit slow to start ... but it's worth it in the end. Hagi has this one moment later on where you're just like... *quibble lip* I love the fact he has like maybe ten lines the entire damn series, but he's such a presence. It's cute.

*lip curls* I spy with my little eye ... Twilight and LKH in one grouping. *avoids topic for fear of ranting. Again*

This year, I've been getting into a lot of books again, too. After becoming very disenchanted with a majority of my favoite UF authors, I've been fortunate enough to either discover new ones or have some suggested to me. Carrie Vaughn, by the way. Love her work. Thank you SO MUCH for pointing her out to me. Kitty is wonderful and down-to-earth. She's got spunk without being irritating and unlikeable. And THE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT! OH EM GEE! You're right, there is a huuuuge but subtly done change between the books, particularly from the first one. Absolutely freakin' awesome.

[nekohooch]

Yay! Hagi! I love him. He is awesome for all the reasonas that you stated...and the fact that it is very hard to find badass people who play the cello. ^-^

OH MY GOODNESS! The Beekeepers Apprentice! I love that book, and seriously wish I owned it. Mary Russell is awesome, and everything you said about Holmes is so true. I have difficulty reading the 'normal' Holmes books thanks to that book.

just two words: Katara=win

^-^

[qualapec.livejournal.com]

Word to all of the above. And I did like the episode where Katara confronted the man who murdered her mother. I love her comment at the end, about how she'll never forgive him...but she can give Zuko a second chance. I thought that it was a very nice way to keep her from murder AND get her to accept Zuko, but at the same time not hire the Characterization Hitman.

On Twilight, the only thing I could add is my interpretation that it's widely seen as good Judea-Christian fiction. After you get past the idea that it has vampires in it, the gender roles and the fact that it avoids truly edgy social topics (Take Tamora Pierce for instance, with her homosexual characters) seem to point to a 'moral conservative' origin. For one thing, Meyers is a self-proclaimed Mormon. That seems to tie into the idea of "no sex before marriage". But more importantly with regard to its popularity, a very cynical part of me wonders how many people look at the author's religious affiliation and go, "mmm...this should be okay for my tween to read because it's a love story that won't offend my sensibilities."

However, you're right. There is one more than one way to interpret it. I really loved that one person's essay on how Bella's actually quite empowered compared to most of the fanbase. It really was a fresh perspective. Of course, I also love teh_amazing_one's essay on the topic.

Death Note lost me when Naomi was killed. After that, I jumped to the end and learned the rest from Wikipedia.

[indira14.livejournal.com]

I very much agree about Hagi and Saya! I really do - Hagi doesn't say much, but there's just something about the way he's drawn and this emotional depth to his character that we see sometimes, that makes him so completely attractive.

And the cultural stereotypes in naruto. Well, I believe it mostly stems from Japan's patriarchal society and its views on women (there's this post by sub_textual that made me crave Soul Eater and it's gender dynamics like crazy the other day: http://sub-textual.livejournal.com/29019.html )

And Twilight... no, I will not speak about that mostrosity at all! I've had enough with all the heavy debate. It's just so.. urgh.

I'm thinking of switching to Avatar for a while, because Katara seems freakin' amazing! I'm a sucker for strong female leads ♥

[meitah.livejournal.com]

In-fucking-deed. Kishimoto is horrible to his female characters. But he's also fairly indifferent to anyone other than Sasuke and Naruto. Some of the most interesting male characters don't get any attention or page time either. I'm beginning to think that Kishimoto only likes little boys.

But I haven't been reading for a few months. Wtf? Did they really never do anything with Hinata's confession? In any other series on the planet, that would have been fodder for at least a chapter of angsting. But given Kishimoto's apparent disdain for women, it should have at least warranted a "girls are weird/icky/cootie-infested" line.

[devimelete.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I mean, I have a strange issue with Patti. I like her well enough, but she doesn't seem to have her own agency, or willingness to think outside her emotions while like her sister does. I mean, I feel like Patti and Liz sort of echo Kidd's own personality. Like Liz, he can be candid and logical and well-assuming, but he has his moments of absolute CRAZY and pure childishness, and Patti seems to reflect that as well. While it does echo the theme of bonding others as soul mates in the manga, I'm still not exactly satisfied with this theory about Patti in general.


OH TWILIGHT. My mom likes them, she told me to read them, and I said, "I tried to, but I can't stand Edward. I stopped reading it so can I pretend that Bella dumped Edward and started to have an affair with Alice." Which makes my mom go LOL and said, "But she's already taken."

I nearly replied, "Then threesome?" but then my dad is sitting next to me and I don't think my sister would've appreciate the comment. So I said, "Then love triangle? They've done that in New Moon, right?"


And another funny story: just a few hours ago when I was waiting in line to get tickets for the new Sherlock Holmes film, I overheard a few guys who were getting tickets to that New Moon movie. One said something like, "...they make it all bad that the guy who lusts after the girl get the bad rep." Which at this point I was torn between laughing, or say loudly to my mom, "Mom, if some guy stalked me and claimed he has the skin of a killer, would you give me that pioneer bayonet to I can stake him?"

At that time, we got the tickets, those guys started to talk about football, and it became too damn cold to stand outside anymore. But I soon forgot all about it,as Sherlock Holmes is very good (even though it should be called John Watson, because that man steals the show), with some awesome women as well.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I basically started reading manga because it would take me almost a month to read a prose book for a good while there in college, and I remember one time when I was giddy that I was able to watch a whole 2 episodes of Wolf's Rain in one week.

[fonsetorigo.livejournal.com]

Haiagain, I am not stalking you I swear but you've posted so many things you provoke me to discussion, I swearz.

About Naomi in Death Note.

I wrote a paper about the sterotypes that are presented in Death Note, and how Naomi is treated...? Maybe thats word I am looking for, I'm not sure. Well anyway, how she is treated says a lot more then just that "she would ruin the story if she lived". Because well, she had a brain and was sort of independent but while she did nothing with it, she got to live! As soon as she did? D-e-a-d. And ya know, Misa, who is as you said, fucking psycho. Then that other lady whose name escapes me but who is "the voice of god" and is just as crazy as Misa about Light and suicides for him? The messages that Death Note presents to women is kind of disgusting, and ever since I wrote that paper I can't really look at it the same.

-shrug- I don't know, its just my thoughts on it.

[neko-no-kaze.livejournal.com]

Gah! Sorry I didn't get responding back to this earlier, tho I was able to read the 12 reasons she's awesome, life and other things hit me hard. I can say that reading it really cheered my day up. ^_^

I kinda thought of Twilight as a kink vs. quality thing. You tend to read/watch/own things that have a lot of your kinks(symbols/things that you REALLY like)like strong women, vampires, skulls, wings and the such, but depending on the quality you like it, don't, or it's a guilty pleasure. With a line saying how low you will go if something has a lot of your kinks.

And I think I had a point to this but my brain's falling asleep again. blerrg.