Fail, Slash Fangirls, Fail

[redbrunja]

You know what I keep hearing? What pisses me off like no other?

The slasher pov that it is impossible to write a male/female relationship that is equal.

Fuck that.

If you want to write about boys sexing each other, fine, but don't flat-out state that it is impossible for a fictionally heterosexual relationship to ever be equal, as well as implying that every single real world straight relationship is inequal to boot.

Comments

[nimblnymph.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... interesting.

Are you talking about the... shit, what is it ... Antigone complex? I think that's it anyway.

See, I always thought it was more that a child would look for a partner that bore similar traits to the parent of the opposite sex -- which meant they wanted to have sex with that parent, or something like that.

Of course, this is just going off what I remember of it. I kinda zoned out on the Freud talk. Dude was messed up and had no business playing with people's heads when his own was a playground of jacked-uppery. Not to mention, I think you were helping me with a psych project not too long ago ... so chances are I'll probably defer to you on this one.

[nimblnymph.livejournal.com]

"Maybe the reason the penis is so mysterious is because it's an image that girls are sequestered from on cultural reflex?"

This right here. I'd say this definitely plays into at least the fascination aspect of yaoi. Perhaps not why a homosexual relationship is more functional than a heterosexual one... but it at least explains WHY so many slash fans are women.

I agree that a LOT of it is because we're taught basically from birth that nudity is lewd and the human body is something to be hidden away. I'm not saying we all need to strip down to our skin and run around ... because that would be uncomfortable for other reasons. But we're conditioned to view the body, particularly that of the opposite sex, as a taboo. At least part of this stigma is due to Victorian ideals of propriety. That era, oddly enough, is responsible for a LOT of lingering social misbeliefs. *has been doing research*

Anyway, another part of the fascination may be because women don't HAVE penii. It's something completely foreign to us; a mystery, as you said. And who doesn't want to explore a good mystery? *leers*

[nimblnymph.livejournal.com]

"Now, ice hockey...ice hockey is AWESOME and you can see how hard it is, how much skill that it takes. That's a much better game."

No, it doesn't make you an asshole. You speak truth. *is mad hockey fan*

[silver-spotted.livejournal.com]

don't flat-out state that it is impossible for a fictionally heterosexual relationship to ever be equal, as well as implying that every single real world straight relationship is inequal to boot.

this. so very much.

[qualapec.livejournal.com]

*points* This! WORD.

And THAT, my friends, is irony because seme/uke doesn't mean dom/sub. The concept translates more closely as male/FEMALE.

Now THAT is interesting. I've always avoided seme/uke when I write yaoi, but I always figured it translated to 'top' and 'bottom' or something similar.

THEY ARE STILL TECHNICALLY WRITING A RELATIONSHIP BASED OFF OF HETEROSEXUAL DYNAMICS.

And that is just wonderfully ironic given the topic of this post...

[qualapec.livejournal.com]

There are times where I could understand that analysis, but I think there are a LOT of factors that go into how a girl looks at het relationships. What about girls and boys raised by single fathers/mothers? They don't become asexual, so the connection is hardly 100% Also, I think that point of view completely undermines the gender-model parent; if the mother tells a girl how smart and beautiful she is, you're saying it's completely useless if the father is a douche?

I can see a connection between our opposite-sex parent and how we look at the opposite gender...because that's our first interaction with the opposite gender. I think it's a matter of perspective, of understanding that not ALL men are jerks.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

And I know they are just trying to escape the engrained sexism of our culture, but I think they are under-estimating the sexual politics that would exist between two gay men as well as perpetuating our culture's sexism to boot.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Good luck with that.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Which is why they're also writing so much femmeslash, right? I mean, a lesbian relationship must be as equal as a gay one, right?

Oh, they are, it's just that writing femmeslash is so much harder because writers don't give female/female friendships the same screentime that male/male friendships get.

Just that when I'm usually seeing such a justification for why slash is better than het, I'm usually seeing some form of misogyny in there too.

I totally agree.

[meitah.livejournal.com]

*shrugs* Fandom opinions are manifestations of core beliefs, which themselves are largely the product of how we were raised and who raised us. (And genetics. It's actually kind of frightening how much those control our non-physical traits.)

But I understand the nerves, I think. It really isn't my place to comment on other people's familial relationships, especially when I know nothing about them and I'm just making assumptions. (Not to mention that Freudian psych is pure squick.)

[meitah.livejournal.com]

See, I always thought it was more that a child would look for a partner that bore similar traits to the parent of the opposite sex -- which meant they wanted to have sex with that parent, or something like that.

I learned that it was both that and that the opposite sex parent has slightly more influence over a child than the other parent.

The Freud talk is one of the better ones to zone out on. It's... disturbing to think about. And it makes you wonder about Freud's relationship with his own mother and his daughter, Anna, who continued his research.

No problem! It was a lot of fun. But I think my words should be taken with a grain of salt. I grew up around psych people, but I've only taken two formal classes in it. Everything else I learned at the age of five with my mom when she was studying. (Though I was apparently disturbingly good at behavioral modification, as my dad really should have noticed.)

[meitah.livejournal.com]

Girls raised by single mothers are more likely to have more severe paternal abandonment issues because their fathers really have effectively abandoned them.

About the gender-model parent- BOTH parents effect the child's view of gender norms and self-worth, by both their absence and presence. A douche-y father has just as much affect on a daughter as a supportive mother, and vice versa.

Indeed, people do need to understand that not all men are jerks. Unfortunately, not everyone is able or willing to move past childhood issues.

[nimblnymph.livejournal.com]

"The Freud talk is one of the better ones to zone out on."

I think he had some good BASE ideas, but the man was entirely too preoccupied with sex and was more about (it seems to me) finding PROBLEMS than solutions.

[meitah.livejournal.com]

Indeed. He's a good base, but he's too single-issue to be anything more than a base. Yes, parents and sex are two huge things in psych, but they aren't everything, and no one wants to think of those two words in the same sentence. Except maybe Freud. Squick.

[qualapec.livejournal.com]

Oh, they are, it's just that writing femmeslash is so much harder because writers don't give female/female friendships the same screentime that male/male friendships get.

Agreed, but I still think it's important to remember that some heterosexual girls are just not...comfortable writing femmeslash. Sometimes, I don't think it's so much an equality thing as it's just not what they're interested in writing. Not necessarily because they don't find female characters interesting, but just because writing f/f squicks them. There is a fair bit of subconscious (and more blatant) misogyny among slashers, but I don't think it's fair to assume that someone is not writing as much f/f as m/m because they don't like writing female characters.

Or were you just referencing that in relation to the "yaoi is the only equal relationship" argument (which IS utter fail and the 'as much f/f as m/m' argument makes sense in that case) I wasn't sure if you were speaking in general or not...

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I agree. Also, snarkly, I have to note that most of his ideas are impossible to test effectively.

[yukitheawesome.livejournal.com]

Maybe I should withdraw from fandom, become a hermit, and write a metaphysical monologue for those who come to visit on why people fail so hard.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't you get lonely?

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I was specifically referencing what I was specifically told by this slasher.

I have no problem with people not writing het or femmeslash because slash is what is easy or what they want to read or what turns their crank.

What I have a problem is when people try to argue that slash is somehow quantitatively better than het, which is unavoidably damaged.

[yukitheawesome.livejournal.com]

I think relaxed, at first. Then crazy. Then relaxed again, and after that I'd probably go insane and kill a park ranger or something, and then I would become a zen master. By this point, though, society would have moved on and my metaphysical blather would be outdated and my life wasted.

…

Perhaps staying is the better option. So I'm just gonna have a kickass women spam party on my journal and make myself feel better. (b' ')b

[qualapec.livejournal.com]

Okay, I see what you're saying :)

[hungrytiger11.livejournal.com]

I always feel there are several important carvats to throw out whenever you are talking about Freud. First, the society he was a part of was enormously repressed, especially sexually. Second, he mostly treated people with hysteria and things that genuniely had to do with sexual repression (men with the "glove syndrome" where they couldn't feel their hand below the glove line because they were trying to suppress a sexual urge to rub one off, for example). Therefore, Freud's pool of research is horribly skewed. Third, looking at any pysch theory you want to see both if there's a lot written about it (indicating it is considered a valid idea to investigate by peers) and if the theory holds up in real life tests and case studies. Freud does have a ton of people researching his views, but his theories are mostly debunked (not all, though the antigone/oepdieus complex is).

Still, he's pretty important to pop culture; his ideas have been infused in all sorts of literature and music etc. He's also important because his ideas spawned a lot of good other houses of thinking.

[despairinbeauty.livejournal.com]

=____= That is...made of too much fail. DDDDDDDDDDDDDX

In fact, it implies that these girls feel too inferior to even look at themselves straight. I mean...aren't they girls themselves? DDDX

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

They are. Which is why the misogyny in slash fandom drives me so fucking up the wall.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't know. Achieving zen sounds pretty impressive to me.

And that kickass ladies spam is making my.... early, early morning.