There's a ton to respond to there, but mostly I'm just insanely irritated by the assumption that it's impossible for women and men to want to read the same books in some kind of innate and concrete way. Ugh. Seriously?
Oh, and I couldn't find any stats to back up that article's claims RE: more women in that industry. I don't really believe that, but lets take it at face value. There's still the fact that in as little as 3 years ago, male publishers on average made around $16,000 more a year than their female counterparts in the book publishing industry to deal with (http://www.bookbusinessmag.com/article/are-your-peers-br-making-more-than-br-you-here-is-your-br-tool-for-solving-br-the-compensation-br-puzzle-71863/1#utm_source=bookbusinessmag.com&utm_medium=search_results_page&utm_campaign=search_result).
From first grade all the way through twelfth and beyond in higher education, the majority of books that we teach in school are written by men. For centuries men have controlled the defining boundaries of what the Western cultural canon is, literature-wise. The majority of teachers are women, but the majority of administrators are men, hence men mostly control the curriculum in our schools. There's a male-centric attitude about what is and isn't "literature" that starts developing in freakin' grade school. See: What people think about paperback romances.
The majority of published writers are women (romances make up the financial backbone of the publishing industry), but men still dominate the upper tier of every major publishing house, and they still control the major bookstore businesses as well.
Has this person never looked at a New York Times bestseller list? It never drops below a 50/50 ratio for men and women authors. Most of the time there are more male authors on the list than not.
From first grade all the way through twelfth and beyond in higher education, the majority of books that we teach in school are written by men.
This is particularly interesting considering a common thing to blame the supposed "reading gap" where "boys are falling behind" is that educators do not choose books that are aimed at or appeal to boys. The arguments are that there's too much about emotion and boys are not good at verbalizing emotion (to be fair, the part of the brain that processes emotion moves up from the back of the brain to up right next to the verbal center whereas in men it stays further back where it is in children of both genders). Or there's arguments that men won't like stories, only nonfiction which isn't read enough for kids. (and that bothers me because it implies girls don't need nonfiction or something).
For some reason, this reminds me of an article (which I am searching for again to prove that it exists) that said (okay, paraphrased really) something like, "For some reason, when it comes to books, it's okay for girls to read books about boys but it's not okay if boys read books about girls - girls are encouraged to read about both genders, but boys are only encouraged to read about boys."
I don't know if that has anything to do with this, but it reminded me of that.
Yeah, I hate how that's true. And am rather proud that for much of my elementary and HS years, I refused to read any book that didn't have a strong female secondary character, if not a female protagonist.
Didn't you have to read books that were required for the curriculum, like Julius Caesar or A Tale of Two Cities? The way my school works, we have books that are units in class, and then we have personal reading on top of that.
However, it does annoy me that we haven't read a single book with a female protagonist since 7th grade. I love A Tale of Two Cities, but I can't believe that there isn't a single strong female protagonist that is worth time in a HS class.
I did have assigned reading and I wasn't talking about that - I was speaking of what I read for pleasure.
However, it does annoy me that we haven't read a single book with a female protagonist since 7th grade. I love A Tale of Two Cities, but I can't believe that there isn't a single strong female protagonist that is worth time in a HS class.
I agree to a certain extent about what everyone else has said; that boys are encouraged to read books about boys while girls are encouraged to read books about both genders. As a current prisoner of the public school system, I know this is true and it bugs me to no end.
However, I also think it's important to mention that it's just not CULTURAL for boys to like reading. At all. I think part of the reason we see fewer men reading is because, especially recently, boys have been taught that boys that read are somehow dorky or uncool (thank you, Disney Channel, btw). Nobody wants to be dorky or uncool. For more boys to read, we need to change the image of reading, knowledge, and intellectual speech in the media. In short, I don't think it's the fact that there aren't books that they want to read, but that the culture doesn't program them to read.
However, I also think there are PLENTY of books on the market that are incredibly appealing to men. Dresden Files? Tom Clancy?
Also, I dislike the idea that female publishers are automatically biased against male ideas. For example, Jim Butcher's editor is a woman.
think part of the reason we see fewer men reading is because, especially recently, boys have been taught that boys that read are somehow dorky or uncool (thank you, Disney Channel, btw). Nobody wants to be dorky or uncool. For more boys to read, we need to change the image of reading, knowledge, and intellectual speech in the media.
So much word about this. We have this idea that being smart and having lots of knowledge is somehow bad, which makes NO sense and yet is incredibly persistent in our culture.
However, I also think there are PLENTY of books on the market that are incredibly appealing to men. Dresden Files? Tom Clancy?
I find it very strange that, if such an issue of men not reading exists, that the things getting blame here is the ratio of male to female workers in the publishing companies. It seems like a vast over-simplification to me.
Personally I agree with qualapec that we create cultural constructs that, if they do not actively discourage boys and men reading, than certainly place other values such as altheticism far higher. Women, on the other hand, are expected to be more inclined towards reading, and other "indoor" activities.
And I have to say, the bias against intellectualism thorough out our whole culture is both wrong and actively dangerous to our country (as well as other countries).
I wish I could think of an intelligent response to this, but I am tired right now and mostly overwhelmed by my gut reaction which is to call bullshit and make snarky comments.
I might care if there was a single piece of data to back up that claim--one anecdote which may or may not accurately reflect on the events leading up to the publishing of one book by one male author which the women listening the pitch had apparently not heard of? That's not even one data point, let alone a trend.
Now if someone could get me the statistics for 1) the percentage of female editors in publishing, 2) the percentage of female authors publishing--even better if it's by genre so we we can see who's publishing in more respected literary genres and nonfiction, and who's publishing in less respected genre fiction like romance or mysteries, 3) the statistics for male and female reading habits, again by genre if possible, and 4)the percentage of literary awards that go to female authors, then maybe we could talk about the representation of men in publishing.
But somehow, I sincerely doubt all of those stats would bear out this whole Men Don't Read/Publishing Female Dominated crisis. More likely it's just that publishing is somewhat ahead of the curve toward equality compared to other media outlets like movies and TV, and by comparison equality seems to favor the traditionally less privileged party.
Now if someone could get me the statistics for 1) the percentage of female editors in publishing, 2) the percentage of female authors publishing--even better if it's by genre so we we can see who's publishing in more respected literary genres and nonfiction, and who's publishing in less respected genre fiction like romance or mysteries, 3) the statistics for male and female reading habits, again by genre if possible, and 4)the percentage of literary awards that go to female authors, then maybe we could talk about the representation of men in publishing.
I would love this - beyond just for the scope of this debate I think that would be very interesting to look at.
More likely it's just that publishing is somewhat ahead of the curve toward equality compared to other media outlets like movies and TV, and by comparison equality seems to favor the traditionally less privileged party.
Agreed. And this is not the first time that some men have seen what equality looks like and scream 'help, I'm being oppressed!'
I've pretty much come to expect that any time a traditionally oppressed group starts reaching anything close to parity, the traditionally privileged group will start flailing and whining. Because, you know, clearly white men aren't being properly represented unless they're disproportionately overrepresented and catered to.
Just look at the "boy" crisis in schools. In most of those studies, both male and female test scores have been improving over time. But male test scores aren't improving as quickly! CRISIS!!
"More likely it's just that publishing is somewhat ahead of the curve toward equality compared to other media outlets like movies and TV, and by comparison equality seems to favor the traditionally less privileged party." perfectly explains a lot of the arguments made against 'female dominated professions'. Show me a job where a man gets 70c to a woman's dollar.
Oh please. This reminds me of the comment that Jeremy Paxson made where he said that white middle class men face OPPRESSION AND DISCRIMINATION ... at the BBC.
The BBC. Sure.
I think this is another made-up crisis by someone who looked around and realized that rather than the workplace reflecting him, the workplace looked more like society as a whole.
Oh please. This reminds me of the comment that Jeremy Paxson made where he said that white middle class men face OPPRESSION AND DISCRIMINATION ... at the BBC.
Ha ha ha! Oh, I so feel your white, male, British pain, Paxson. *snort*
This makes me wonder if said perspective is from a person who doesn't realize that there ARE women out there who read "masculine" books like Ender's Game and George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series. It's like they have to categorize women's writings as a separate thing altogether, as if its not worth noting. DDDDDD<
Hell...not all women are what this lady would consider "feminine", considering that quite a number of us like to look at strategic combat and fights and so forth (manga or written or whatsoever). If this article speaks the truth, I will swear off writing forever.
A lot of people who hold opinions like this find fantasy lit as a genre to be feminine. Because girls like maaaagic, and men like hard science. Honestly, it's pretty insulting to men, women and the whole fantasy genre.
Which is to say that women liking A Song of Ice and Fire probably wouldn't seem like a woman liking "manly" fiction in this person's mind, while Ender's Game is old enough not to be thought to reflect the modern market. And might possibly just go to reinforce the old stereotype that man things are for everyone, but women things are niche.
Oh, god, I get so sick of people splitting things up into 'what women like' and 'what men like.' There is WAY more overlap than people like to believe, for some bizarre reason.
First, when she says men in publishing, who exactly is she referring to? Editors? Vendors? Agents? There are way too many positions, and while I have no idea what the actual ratio is, I see many many men in those positions.
However, the numbers will likely be somewhat off because of, dun dun dun, romance. Typically close to all, if not all, female, written for females by females. (Although when I get men in my store that discover the series they're reading is labeled under romance i must say that is quite priceless). But that is not the standard or norm for the publishing industry. If the industry is looked at without including the romance sector I think things look somewhat different.
Second, I agree on many of the cultural arguments brought up already, that it's seen as 'uncool' in boys, that girls are herded more toward 'indoor' activities.
Then again, reading in general has simply declined in the younger generations. I think this could again be labeled as a cultural thing, but there are so many other things to occupy time with now - ipod, dvd, internet, gaming systems, etc - and reading is typically what's done for school. Since it's associated mostly with that institution, and frankly most books you're forced to read in school aren't all that great or interesting or engaging by current young standards, it's not typically seen as a positive thing.
Third, as a bookseller I have to address this from the side of the readers as well. While I would admit that more women buy in my store than men, the ratio isn't extremely divergent - and even then I think it's mostly pushed over by the old ladies buying their romance novels and the high amount of women buying for their husbands and kids. So it's going to be skewed a little bit. However the difference is not THAT huge.
Furthermore, as I mentioned, it seemed interest in reading simply dropped off a bit with the younger generation. Then came along Twilight, and whether or not a fan of the books, they did something amazing for encouraging reading in the pre/teen female demographic. Then those readers wanted something similar to Twilight, and vampire fever has taken over the book world, but they're READING. However, since boys aren't into sparkly vampires, again the demographic is skewed.
Then again, it's getting more of them into the stores and libraries. Plus I see a great increase in boys around age 10 in reading - there are a lot of awesome young reader series out now that are aimed specifically at boys (but that lots of girls read as well - although that does also reflect the point made that it's okay for girls to read about boys but not vice versa).
And you want to talk about marketing and promoting male books? How about almost every single movie getting made. The Road, I Am Legend, Shutter Island, The Bourne Trilogy, I could keep going obviously. Frankly you could say more male authored books get made into movies verses female (though there are plenty of those as well) but I think that also plays into the idea that men are more visually stimulated and women more visually stimulated (hence movies vs. reading)
Then again, you could also say the difference depends on the kinds of books. Women come into my store for romance and craft books, men for computer and political books (and both for novels). Romance has a higher turn over and the same ladies are back buying week after week, whereas a computer is a tool to be used continually over time, so it pulls me back to what is she basing her readership on? Number of sales? Because if that's done without the appropriate curve then everything will be skewed.
Sorry, I likely got very convoluted in all of this. So I'll end here before I get even more entangled, haha.
(Although when I get men in my store that discover the series they're reading is labeled under romance i must say that is quite priceless).
Ha! I bet it is!
I think this could again be labeled as a cultural thing, but there are so many other things to occupy time with now - ipod, dvd, internet, gaming systems, etc - and reading is typically what's done for school. Since it's associated mostly with that institution, and frankly most books you're forced to read in school aren't all that great or interesting or engaging by current young standards, it's not typically seen as a positive thing.
This is very true. I know I read SO much less than I used to, simply I have a computer now.
Plus I see a great increase in boys around age 10 in reading - there are a lot of awesome young reader series out now that are aimed specifically at boys (but that lots of girls read as well - although that does also reflect the point made that it's okay for girls to read about boys but not vice versa).
Do you think this is a reaction to parents noticing how many kids weren't/aren't reading?
That you so much for your comment! I was very thought provoking and I raised a lot of good questions, imho.
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Oh, and I couldn't find any stats to back up that article's claims RE: more women in that industry. I don't really believe that, but lets take it at face value. There's still the fact that in as little as 3 years ago, male publishers on average made around $16,000 more a year than their female counterparts in the book publishing industry to deal with (http://www.bookbusinessmag.com/article/are-your-peers-br-making-more-than-br-you-here-is-your-br-tool-for-solving-br-the-compensation-br-puzzle-71863/1#utm_source=bookbusinessmag.com&utm_medium=search_results_page&utm_campaign=search_result).
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The majority of published writers are women (romances make up the financial backbone of the publishing industry), but men still dominate the upper tier of every major publishing house, and they still control the major bookstore businesses as well.
Has this person never looked at a New York Times bestseller list? It never drops below a 50/50 ratio for men and women authors. Most of the time there are more male authors on the list than not.
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This is particularly interesting considering a common thing to blame the supposed "reading gap" where "boys are falling behind" is that educators do not choose books that are aimed at or appeal to boys. The arguments are that there's too much about emotion and boys are not good at verbalizing emotion (to be fair, the part of the brain that processes emotion moves up from the back of the brain to up right next to the verbal center whereas in men it stays further back where it is in children of both genders). Or there's arguments that men won't like stories, only nonfiction which isn't read enough for kids. (and that bothers me because it implies girls don't need nonfiction or something).
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I don't know if that has anything to do with this, but it reminded me of that.
-Kowareta
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However, it does annoy me that we haven't read a single book with a female protagonist since 7th grade. I love A Tale of Two Cities, but I can't believe that there isn't a single strong female protagonist that is worth time in a HS class.
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However, it does annoy me that we haven't read a single book with a female protagonist since 7th grade. I love A Tale of Two Cities, but I can't believe that there isn't a single strong female protagonist that is worth time in a HS class.
Oh, that is epic fail.
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However, I also think it's important to mention that it's just not CULTURAL for boys to like reading. At all. I think part of the reason we see fewer men reading is because, especially recently, boys have been taught that boys that read are somehow dorky or uncool (thank you, Disney Channel, btw). Nobody wants to be dorky or uncool. For more boys to read, we need to change the image of reading, knowledge, and intellectual speech in the media. In short, I don't think it's the fact that there aren't books that they want to read, but that the culture doesn't program them to read.
However, I also think there are PLENTY of books on the market that are incredibly appealing to men. Dresden Files? Tom Clancy?
Also, I dislike the idea that female publishers are automatically biased against male ideas. For example, Jim Butcher's editor is a woman.
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So much word about this. We have this idea that being smart and having lots of knowledge is somehow bad, which makes NO sense and yet is incredibly persistent in our culture.
However, I also think there are PLENTY of books on the market that are incredibly appealing to men. Dresden Files? Tom Clancy?
Oh, there so totally are.
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Personally I agree with qualapec that we create cultural constructs that, if they do not actively discourage boys and men reading, than certainly place other values such as altheticism far higher. Women, on the other hand, are expected to be more inclined towards reading, and other "indoor" activities.
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And I have to say, the bias against intellectualism thorough out our whole culture is both wrong and actively dangerous to our country (as well as other countries).
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Now if someone could get me the statistics for 1) the percentage of female editors in publishing, 2) the percentage of female authors publishing--even better if it's by genre so we we can see who's publishing in more respected literary genres and nonfiction, and who's publishing in less respected genre fiction like romance or mysteries, 3) the statistics for male and female reading habits, again by genre if possible, and 4)the percentage of literary awards that go to female authors, then maybe we could talk about the representation of men in publishing.
But somehow, I sincerely doubt all of those stats would bear out this whole Men Don't Read/Publishing Female Dominated crisis. More likely it's just that publishing is somewhat ahead of the curve toward equality compared to other media outlets like movies and TV, and by comparison equality seems to favor the traditionally less privileged party.
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I would love this - beyond just for the scope of this debate I think that would be very interesting to look at.
More likely it's just that publishing is somewhat ahead of the curve toward equality compared to other media outlets like movies and TV, and by comparison equality seems to favor the traditionally less privileged party.
Agreed. And this is not the first time that some men have seen what equality looks like and scream 'help, I'm being oppressed!'
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Just look at the "boy" crisis in schools. In most of those studies, both male and female test scores have been improving over time. But male test scores aren't improving as quickly! CRISIS!!
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The BBC. Sure.
I think this is another made-up crisis by someone who looked around and realized that rather than the workplace reflecting him, the workplace looked more like society as a whole.
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Ha ha ha! Oh, I so feel your white, male, British pain, Paxson. *snort*
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This makes me wonder if said perspective is from a person who doesn't realize that there ARE women out there who read "masculine" books like Ender's Game and George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series. It's like they have to categorize women's writings as a separate thing altogether, as if its not worth noting. DDDDDD<
Hell...not all women are what this lady would consider "feminine", considering that quite a number of us like to look at strategic combat and fights and so forth (manga or written or whatsoever). If this article speaks the truth, I will swear off writing forever.
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Which is to say that women liking A Song of Ice and Fire probably wouldn't seem like a woman liking "manly" fiction in this person's mind, while Ender's Game is old enough not to be thought to reflect the modern market. And might possibly just go to reinforce the old stereotype that man things are for everyone, but women things are niche.
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First, when she says men in publishing, who exactly is she referring to? Editors? Vendors? Agents? There are way too many positions, and while I have no idea what the actual ratio is, I see many many men in those positions.
However, the numbers will likely be somewhat off because of, dun dun dun, romance. Typically close to all, if not all, female, written for females by females. (Although when I get men in my store that discover the series they're reading is labeled under romance i must say that is quite priceless). But that is not the standard or norm for the publishing industry. If the industry is looked at without including the romance sector I think things look somewhat different.
Second, I agree on many of the cultural arguments brought up already, that it's seen as 'uncool' in boys, that girls are herded more toward 'indoor' activities.
Then again, reading in general has simply declined in the younger generations. I think this could again be labeled as a cultural thing, but there are so many other things to occupy time with now - ipod, dvd, internet, gaming systems, etc - and reading is typically what's done for school. Since it's associated mostly with that institution, and frankly most books you're forced to read in school aren't all that great or interesting or engaging by current young standards, it's not typically seen as a positive thing.
Third, as a bookseller I have to address this from the side of the readers as well. While I would admit that more women buy in my store than men, the ratio isn't extremely divergent - and even then I think it's mostly pushed over by the old ladies buying their romance novels and the high amount of women buying for their husbands and kids. So it's going to be skewed a little bit. However the difference is not THAT huge.
Furthermore, as I mentioned, it seemed interest in reading simply dropped off a bit with the younger generation. Then came along Twilight, and whether or not a fan of the books, they did something amazing for encouraging reading in the pre/teen female demographic. Then those readers wanted something similar to Twilight, and vampire fever has taken over the book world, but they're READING. However, since boys aren't into sparkly vampires, again the demographic is skewed.
Then again, it's getting more of them into the stores and libraries. Plus I see a great increase in boys around age 10 in reading - there are a lot of awesome young reader series out now that are aimed specifically at boys (but that lots of girls read as well - although that does also reflect the point made that it's okay for girls to read about boys but not vice versa).
And you want to talk about marketing and promoting male books? How about almost every single movie getting made. The Road, I Am Legend, Shutter Island, The Bourne Trilogy, I could keep going obviously. Frankly you could say more male authored books get made into movies verses female (though there are plenty of those as well) but I think that also plays into the idea that men are more visually stimulated and women more visually stimulated (hence movies vs. reading)
Then again, you could also say the difference depends on the kinds of books. Women come into my store for romance and craft books, men for computer and political books (and both for novels). Romance has a higher turn over and the same ladies are back buying week after week, whereas a computer is a tool to be used continually over time, so it pulls me back to what is she basing her readership on? Number of sales? Because if that's done without the appropriate curve then everything will be skewed.
Sorry, I likely got very convoluted in all of this. So I'll end here before I get even more entangled, haha.
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Ha! I bet it is!
I think this could again be labeled as a cultural thing, but there are so many other things to occupy time with now - ipod, dvd, internet, gaming systems, etc - and reading is typically what's done for school. Since it's associated mostly with that institution, and frankly most books you're forced to read in school aren't all that great or interesting or engaging by current young standards, it's not typically seen as a positive thing.
This is very true. I know I read SO much less than I used to, simply I have a computer now.
Plus I see a great increase in boys around age 10 in reading - there are a lot of awesome young reader series out now that are aimed specifically at boys (but that lots of girls read as well - although that does also reflect the point made that it's okay for girls to read about boys but not vice versa).
Do you think this is a reaction to parents noticing how many kids weren't/aren't reading?
That you so much for your comment! I was very thought provoking and I raised a lot of good questions, imho.