(no subject)

[redbrunja]

• So I was listening to Stuff You Missed In History Class' podcast on Lizzie Borden, and given the information provided, personally, I'm thinking it's likely that she didn't kill her father and stepmother. Anyone have opinions about that?
• On the subject of murderesses, can someone tell me if Kate Argent made it out of season two of Teen Wolf alive and kicking?
• I don't have a third thing.

Comments

[lady-with-cats.livejournal.com]

I've never heard of Lizzie Borden. Is this something I should look up?

*SPOILERS FOR TEEN WOLF s2*

Sadly she doesn't, and her relationship with Allison, or how Allison's dealing, doesn't really get picked up beyond the first 2 episodes. (To be fair, other shit does go down, but...) And it's really sad because Allison's issues/feelings sort of get bunched together/treated as a bundle, rather than dealt with complexly imo.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I've never heard of Lizzie Borden. Is this something I should look up?

If you're interested in true crime murders, then yes.

Good to know. Because, really, sociopathic, snarky Kate was my favorite part of the episodes of Teen Wolf I watched.

[lady-with-cats.livejournal.com]

IDK i've never read any. But I enjoy history generally so I just might.

I think I probably enjoyed her brand of insanity more than I should have. Also that twisted Derek/Kate back story I totally called. :D

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Oh, the twisted Kate/Derek backstory was GLORIOUS. So fucked up. So wonderfully fucked up.

[qualapec.livejournal.com]

I don't know, I never studied the crime much. I just remember that rhyme from gradeschool.

( Although considering how exaggerated Countess Bathory's crimes have been it wouldn't suprise me if Lizzie Borden didn't do a damn thing. (http://honeyspider.tumblr.com/post/15185859284/women-of-history-countess-bathory-erzebet-de) )

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

While Bathory's crimes being exaggerated doesn't surprise me... I'm still kind of sad about it.

[hungrytiger11.livejournal.com]

When I was in high school (years ago....), I took a criminal justice class and our finals were trials of unsolved crimes/crimes whose verdicts were different than what history books commonly belief. I was on the defense for Lizzie Borden. Maybe that makes me biased, but looking at all the testimonies and evidence.... I'm pretty sure Lizzie Borden is either innocent or she had to have had an accomplice. There wasn't enough time for her to changed her clothes between the step-mother's death and her father's- and she was seen between that time. Plus, a lot of the surrounding evidence seemed.... iffy.

Kate Argent was definitely dead throughout all of season two. Sadly, they do not get into Alison's (or her father's) feelings about her death all that much. But I think you'd might like season two anyway if you are interested in Alison and the hunters and her reactions to her family.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Maybe that makes me biased, but looking at all the testimonies and evidence.... I'm pretty sure Lizzie Borden is either innocent or she had to have had an accomplice. There wasn't enough time for her to changed her clothes between the step-mother's death and her father's- and she was seen between that time. Plus, a lot of the surrounding evidence seemed.... iffy.

Exactly. Frankly, I'd go for her being completely innocent - largely due to the timeline factor. And there really wasn't ANY evidence of an accomplice at all.

Kate Argent was definitely dead throughout all of season two. Sadly, they do not get into Alison's (or her father's) feelings about her death all that much. But I think you'd might like season two anyway if you are interested in Alison and the hunters and her reactions to her family.

Damn. Kate was the thing I liked the most about the few episodes that I did see.

[hungrytiger11.livejournal.com]

Well, do be fair she did "confess" but it was thrown out because she was on riduclous amounts of Laudium the family physician had given her to "calm" her down. And her uncle sounded like he'd do anything for her. But then again, even if Lizzie didn't like her step mom or living there...she didn't have to. She and her sister had had offers to live else where...

Season two does have Allison becoming more and more like Kate though.

[bellonablack.livejournal.com]

I have heard the Borden place is haunted. Random or not so much. But it's just a scary place.

It's one of those mysteries, they never found the axe right? Could have been the other girl in the house or just an accomplice? It's been a while since I thought about it.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Nope, the hatchet was found. I remember 'cause I read a story about her lawyer's grandson finding it in the attic recently-ish.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

...I think those were journals that were found. The lawyer's grandson found the attorney's personal journals relating to the case. I'm pretty sure the the murder weapon is still MIA.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

I googled, and I was off the mark by a generation -- his daughter found (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwXAIKMLPvI) the hatchet in an old washtub. I guess it's arguable if that was the murder weapon, but the court at the time seemed to agree it was.

[bellonablack.livejournal.com]

oohhhh did anything come from that? Like...any sign of who could have done it? Obv old and so on, but I mean. THat's so interesting, I never thought they could find it.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Not that I'm aware of; they found the hatchet at the crime scene in a toolbox with the handle broken off, had it at the trial, fit it into her father's skull hole and everything, and Lizzie gave it to her lawyer with the other evidence after the trial. I guess it might be a matter of debate if if's the actual murder weapon or just an old broken hatchet that happened to be around the house, but it seemed good enough for the court at the time.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

okay so because I ended up doing more research than I expected on the subject, I will clarify: I was talking about the fact that the hatchet which had been submitted in the courtroom as the murder weapon had been discovered, despite the fact that when it was found it was in a toolbox in the basement, the handle had been broken off, and there was no sign of blood on it. Evidence indicates it's at least the same size as the murder weapon, but it might not be the actual murder weapon.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

It's one of those mysteries, they never found the axe right? Could have been the other girl in the house or just an accomplice? It's been a while since I thought about it.

As I understand it, they found an ax head that COULD have been the murder weapon... but they never found a HANDLE to fit it, and there isn't a good way or the time for Lizzie to have disposed of it.

And as I mentioned, there doesn't seem to be TIME for Lizzie or the other woman in the house to have committed the murder, there isn't any evidence of an accomplice... honestly, there isn't a really solid suspect for the two murders.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Guilty or not, it's a crime that catches people's attention; women are rarely suspected of murder, and even when they are it's usually a ladylike poisoning or something, not a hatchet to the skull. So even if it were definitively proven one way or the other(observational time travel to confirm the murderer?), people would still talk about it.

Probably wasn't her, though. I remember reading something about how she may have been a lesbian, and it's this fault (as perceived by society at the time) that made them even consider her as a suspect instead of an innocent bystander.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

So even if it were definitively proven one way or the other(observational time travel to confirm the murderer?), people would still talk about it.

Oh, agreed.

I remember reading something about how she may have been a lesbian, and it's this fault (as perceived by society at the time) that made them even consider her as a suspect instead of an innocent bystander.

That wouldn't surprise me. The podcast just blew right past, 'and then she changed her name and moved in with another lady' and I was like, 'wait, wait, what?'

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Hey, even if she was straight, she was in her 30s and still living with her father and stepmother. At the very least, she wasn't a proper young woman who'd married a nice man and settled down to have kids of her own -- which was still pretty bad back then.

I hope she was happy. Something like that . . . you might spend the rest of your life having people give you the side eye and nervously edging away every time you chopped firewood. It'd be lovely if she found someone who trusted her.

[aj.livejournal.com]

From the stuff I've read/seen, it seems pretty unlikely that she committed the murders. (LOVE THAT PODCAST.)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Agreed.

Most of the "evidence" against her basically boils down to "she didn't react like I think she should have" imho.

(LOVE THAT PODCAST.)


THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR REC'ING IT!

[aj.livejournal.com]

Pretty much. Poor kid.

And y'welcome! Have you listened to the Tsung sisters one? Because HOLY CRAP, Vietnam breeds some damn awesome ladies!