redbrunja | Oh! Outrage!

...WHAT? That confuses me. Might have been a typo?

All right, now I don't use 'pre-slash', since it seems just as easy to use the ship name or tag it 'slash', but why does 'pre-slash' get your ire up? Isn't it like saying "Eventual such-and-such"?

All right, now I don't use 'pre-slash', since it seems just as easy to use the ship name or tag it 'slash', but why does 'pre-slash' get your ire up? Isn't it like saying "Eventual such-and-such"?

It bugs me because I feel like it's a disengenous attempt to get both slash and gen fans to read a fic - only if they click, the slash fans will likely end up disappointed and the gen fans (if they're like me and really don't like slash) will be braced for the two dudes to start kissing. Which they sometimes do and sometimes don't.

In reality, I actually think 'pre-slash turns more readers away than draws them in, but that could be my bias.

If there is no kissing, no sex, no romantic thoughts, just label your fic gen. If you're building to a relationship or there are romantic thoughts or the beginnings of romantic thoughts, be honest and label it slash.

Edited 2012-12-11 09:48 (UTC)

Which they sometimes do and sometimes don't.

I see what you mean, it's like rolling the dice every time.

I do sympathize with not knowing what to tag the first chapter of a multichapter story that is eventually going to have a pairing but doesn't yet. Because I know it's going to happen, and I want people to know it's going to happen, but I'm worried about people clicking and being disappointed that it hasn't happened yet and that that tag is somehow disingenuous for that chapter.

Because I know it's going to happen, and I want people to know it's going to happen, but I'm worried about people clicking and being disappointed that it hasn't happened yet and that that tag is somehow disingenuous for that chapter.

As a reader (and I feel most readers in general) and smart enough to know that if a fic is tagged as character A/character B and it's a multi-chapter, they're going to automatically understand that even though the two character might not be together in the beginning, CLEARLY the fic is going to be about (or have a subplot about) them hooking up. I mean, that's just how stories work.

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To be honest, I don't feel like I can comment too much on the fetishization aspects of slash because I personally don't like it so very much. I feel like I can't be honest about it, if that makes sense? But I do hear you that how as a queer woman (which I think you've mentioned you identify as?) you find it pretty off-putting? Which totally makes sense to me because slash is pretty undeniably about white, straight fangirls enjoying the thought of two white dudes doing each other. Part of me feelings like, 'whatever gets you off, slash fans' but at the same time, I think do think slash reflects a lot of really problematic aspects our our culture. (Though, to be fair, some of the things that get ME off, reflect really problematic aspects of my culture, so. Glass houses.)

Edited 2012-12-12 08:25 (UTC)

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what you see a lot in fandom is it reaches this threshold where it's just. the characters don't matter, it's not about the stories, it's just about white dudes banging. i've been in a lot of bigger fandoms like that (merlin OH MERLIN jesus you were the worst)

I have read het sex like that - that was so boring and by the numbers that I skipped it (in romance novels, as well as fanfic, which is just like...come on, published authors, up your game.)

i don't actually know what the point of my ramble was, tbh, but we can both agree that there should be more great steve/darcy on ao3, y/y?

Fuck yes. I'm trying to find some Steve/Darcy is not wildly ooc that I haven't read before and it's.... pretty damn impossible, atm.

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I feel like I have really been blessed with some excellent Steve Rogers gen, but goddamn, some times I really want to read about Steve and some ladies. Like, there was a gen fic that I just recc'd (The Goat's Back) and there was a voice in my head going 'Natasha JUMP THAT BOY' for, like 60% of the time I was reading that fic. (And 100% of the time I was going, 'oh, STEVE.')

Also, because I'm curious, which stereotypes have you noticed that come from the fandom and not the character?

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his whole "steve rogers adjusting to the modern world, technology is hard!!!!" thing can be taken way, way too far. steve rogers is an incredibly bright military tactician but he was also an art student before the war, no one should actually expect him to know advanced physics.

Oh, fuck yes. It's gotten to the point where I really pay attention to how an author will write Steve and tech and it's like - he's clearly, in the movie, functioning with things like tablets and very advanted comms - he's not going to fumble around and act shocked by everything.

people forget that bruce and tony are two characters who are written to be as uncommonly smart as ~people wish they could be~, it's a different shade of the comic book power fantasy. steve is a different kind of intelligent, that doesn't mean he needs help tying his shoes.

*nods*

Compared to Tony and Bruce, just about EVERYONE (except Jane and Selvig and Betty) are idiots regarding one specific type of intelligence. (I also find it pretty funny that in the movie, Steve ended up finding basically the same information that Tony was hacking SHIELD for, and if you factor in when they each started looking, Steve found it faster.)

Errrm I don't think it's "undeniable" that slash is about "white, straight fangirls". Like, not to say that slash doesn't "reflect a lot of really problematic aspects of our culture" - I think that's an excellent way of phrasing it. But I would also point out that the proportion of queer slashers is big. Like, a few years ago there was an attempt at polling this stuff - and obviously those are inherently going to be skewed and messy, but this particular poll of thousands of self-identified slashers had the "queer women" proportion at around 60%. Straight women were in the minority. I mean, obvs that's just one poll, but it was pretty massive and is less anecdotal than my personal experience, so.

And obviously queer women can do fetishizing messy stuff too. But we're not even a small minority of slashers; we're a heavy proportion, and I genuinely think it's become kind of erasing to emphasise this "slashers with straight privilege" thing.

Idk. I don't massively disagree but I just think "undeniable" is way too certain of a term when there are so many people for whom slash is not about that at all

But I would also point out that the proportion of queer slashers is big. Like, a few years ago there was an attempt at polling this stuff - and obviously those are inherently going to be skewed and messy, but this particular poll of thousands of self-identified slashers had the "queer women" proportion at around 60%. Straight women were in the minority. I mean, obvs that's just one poll, but it was pretty massive and is less anecdotal than my personal experience, so.

Huh, that is really interesting, because that is completely different than the other percentages that I've seen quoted before.

Idk. I don't massively disagree but I just think "undeniable" is way too certain of a term when there are so many people for whom slash is not about that at all

Yeah, probably a bad word choice.

I tried looking for Tony/Pepper fic at AO3 last night.

What a fucking exercise in frustration.

Though, I'd be weirdly more okay if I saw ONE. GOD. DAMNED. STORY. that was Pepper/Someone, Tony/Pepper rather than Tony/Whoever, Tony/Pepper.

But no.

The thing that's hysterically funny? In comics, Pepper blows Tony off and he spends most of his time pining over her. *shakes head*

I tried looking for Tony/Pepper fic at AO3 last night.

What a fucking exercise in frustration.

You were very brave to try.

The thing that's hysterically funny? In comics, Pepper blows Tony off and he spends most of his time pining over her. *shakes head*

I need more fics like this. Or at least like fics where Pepper has an active romantic life before she ends up with Tony.

Also, this Steve gen fic (http://archiveofourown.org/works/532354) has some great Tony/Pepper moments.

Word on the pre-slash thing.

I'm curious if a general pre-ship tag would bug you as much.

It bugs me a FRACTION less. But is still really annoying.

I mean, I think it really ultimately depends on how you define gen. I think it can be a pretty useful tag, especially when you're dealing with long simmering couples in canon. If a couple is not together, but there's clearly UST and you've tagged it with the ship, I think you're almost obligated to mention that they're not together together in the fic.

But mostly, I think it's a different strokes thing.

I think it can be a pretty useful tag

I can understand that. Personally, I think there are a lot of different, better ways to describe your fic. Added to which, 'pre-slash?' For a het couple? Seriously, wtf?

Oh! Outrage!

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