I remember feeling kind of weird about this when I read it--the Kate-has-no-baggage thing. I think what I was thinking about at the time was that Kate is a rape survivor, which Clint probably doesn't know, but wasn't there also some kind of big Young Avengers team death trauma that he would know about?
Your comment made me do A LOT of thinking about Kate and her baggage and her masks. Because you're totally right, while Kate Bishop is fairly normal compared to other superheroes, she is:
-a survivor of rape -her mother died -her father is an absentee dad -her relationship with her sister is loving but not easy -her best friend is dead -her team was fractured and either explicitly or implicitly she's been lying to Billy and Teddy about being a superhero
So she has plenty of baggage. But the thing about Kate is, she presents a fucking amazingly competent front. When I think about Kate, I think about her as the Batman of the Young Avengers set. She was the one bankrolling and encouraging the other YA to keep fighting, she's rich and kind of emotionally isolated, she presents this perfect in control facade that is both true and not true.
And I don't think, since Cassie (and possibly Eli left) that she has anyone about to look at her and go, 'okay, you're not being straight about this aspect of your life.'
I love that Clint and Kate are kind of accidental best friends, but I think Clint buys the image that Kate presents to the world when he should know better. (He also consistently undervalues his own importance to her, which cases him to act in ways that I bet Kate reads as him not caring about her, which makes her even less likely to confide her vulnerabilities to him.)
This makes me really interested to see an arc about Kate needing help or support and not being able to reach out for it (because let's face it, Kate-Katie is bad with emotional vulnerability) and seeing what happens next.
...It says something really depressing about the status quo in superhero comics that she can have all those issues to deal with, and the takeaway is basically, "Well, all your issues happened to you for YOUR OWN character development and not a dude's, you still have family members you speak to, and you are not actively fighting with your teammates, so you kind of won the superheroine lottery."
When I think about Kate, I think about her as the Batman of the Young Avengers set Oh my gosh. Can this be a meme? This needs to be a meme. Everyone thinks the Batman of Marvel is Tony Stark, wrong, it is Kate Bishop. :D
I'm looking at the panel again, and because she specifically says "your baggage" and not just "baggage," I wonder if what this is about is not whether Kate has emotional baggage of her own, but whether she's had to carry baggage for other people, literally and metaphorically. Which would make sense, because she then spends the rest of the Madripoor storyline showing Clint up by getting him out of a huge mess in ways that are physically and emotionally stressful to her.
But yeah, it would be interesting to see Kate needing support, because she is always saving Clint's butt before he even thinks to call for her, and I don't think she would be able to ask for his help in the same way, or that it would occur to him that she needed him to give it.
Hi, I'm loving the meta, agree with all of it...I was wondering if either of you were going to get into the more recent issues, like the thing that Clint wants to tell Kate which I have a lot of mixed feelings about for the reasons that you've stated...
I am not sure what you mean, but I read those issues a while ago and don't remember much about them beyond "Grills is dead and Kate kissed a spooky death clown guy."
I read that as he was going to write a letter to Jess and his relationship with Jess and how that ended was what was causing him to be drinking on the roof. I'm not 100% sure what Kate told him in their conversation that made him upset with her, but I was assuming it, again, related to Jess, although I could be wrong (I actually think we'll get more info on that conversation next issue).
What were you thinking was going on - slash - tell me more about your mixed feelings.
Well, I assumed it was Jess but then, episode #10 made me think he was starting to have feelings for Kate? Like that's why he was so mad at her?
Now, despite Jess and Bobbi and everything, I did ship Hawkeye/Hawkeye at first until I started to realize how he isn't really supportive of her having all her shit and having to put up with his stuff on top of that. Like he calls her a brat at the same moment of calling her awesome and just... I don't want her hurt any more.
Hmm, I do, actually ship Clint and Kate, and while I think there are places where Clint misses the mark with what's going on with Kate, I do think that he respects her as a person and as a superhero. And also, significantly, really fucking enjoys her company (which is mutual). And Clint doesn't call her a brat. What he says is, "kate is without a doubt the finest and most gifted bowman I have ever met but she's like nine years old and spoiled rotten. She's pretty great." And then later in the issues he goes, "she's perfect." Clint clearly loves spending time with Kate (she's always at his apartment, they have a very friendly, casual dynamic) and while I think Clint errors in not realizing how how much he means to Kate, that's because HE DOESN'T SEE HIMSELF AS HAVING VALUE TO HER. It's super-significant that when he's planning on leaving town, he gives her his bow. Like, I cannot stress how much Clint clearly likes and respects Kate on pretty much every level, EVEN AS HE SOMETIMES HURTS HER WITHOUT MEANING TO.
And the fact that Kate can often realize that it's Clint's problem? That it's not HER, that she talks about that with other people, THAT SHE FUCKS CALLS CLINT ON IT TO HIS FACE? Ugh, it's just so hugely functional and healthy and wonderful.
"Well, all your issues happened to you for YOUR OWN character development and not a dude's, you still have family members you speak to, and you are not actively fighting with your teammates, so you kind of won the superheroine lottery."
Pretty much.
Oh my gosh. Can this be a meme? This needs to be a meme. Everyone thinks the Batman of Marvel is Tony Stark, wrong, it is Kate Bishop. :D
Hell yes. And Tony Stark is a fucking warped mirror of Batman; no way is he the batman analogue in the Marvel-verse.
"your baggage" and not just "baggage," I wonder if what this is about is not whether Kate has emotional baggage of her own, but whether she's had to carry baggage for other people, literally and metaphorically. Which would make sense, because she then spends the rest of the Madripoor storyline showing Clint up by getting him out of a huge mess in ways that are physically and emotionally stressful to her.
I think it's a combination of both? Like, I think Clint thinks that Kate doesn't have baggage of her own -slash- has had to deal with other people's shit the way that Clint has (which is true as far as it goes, but doesn't tell the whole story) but I also think that there is this element to the story that's about the Hawkeye legacy, and passing down the name, and by the nature of that - that they both carry the name, that Kate was given it by Captain America when Clint was dead, means that Kate is, as she says, trading on Clint's name and part of his problems.
(which is true as far as it goes, but doesn't tell the whole story) Yeah. It's like there's this weird superhero trauma triage thing, and if you have never died and you still have relatives and you don't break down sobbing in team meetings, you're probably more functional than 90% of the people you know, no matter what else is wrong with you. So there's nobody to worry about you.
Like, how Batman is ostensibly supposed to be watching out for Robin and teaching him (her) things, but Batman is so screwed up he really can't take care of Robin? Robin probably takes care of Batman more than Batman takes care of Robin, because if he didn't have a kid around to cheer him up he would just be sad all the time.
...latenightcuppa and this fic (http://archiveofourown.org/works/662726) being responsible for the fact that I relate Hawkeye/Hawkey dynamics in terms of Batman & Robin. :P
you're probably more functional than 90% of the people you know, no matter what else is wrong with you. So there's nobody to worry about you.
Right? Which I think is why Clint has this huge blind spot with regards to Kate. "Katie-kate? She's a functional adult! She's totally fine!" Not always, Clint, not always.
...latenightcuppa and this fic being responsible for the fact that I relate Hawkeye/Hawkey dynamics in terms of Batman & Robin. :P
Honestly, Kate and Clint read so clearly to me as equals in the way that they treat and view the other, that that metaphor doesn't totally work for me.
No, no, you're both right, and I realized after I went to bed last night that I was taking that completely the opposite of the point of the story (1am posting, whooo). Because Kate is a legacy hero and not a sidekick, and Clint never does the whole "Try harder, Robin" thing with her after that first time. I think what I meant was that adult superheroes are so busy with superhero problems and the trauma that they accumulate over time that the younger superheroes sometimes end up looking like the functional adults in their partnerships and having to go around picking up after people who are older than them. If only because they've had less time to get messed up? Which, even if they are not looking for a mentor figure per se, is still not entirely fair to them as kids/young adults.
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-a survivor of rape
-her mother died
-her father is an absentee dad
-her relationship with her sister is loving but not easy
-her best friend is dead
-her team was fractured and either explicitly or implicitly she's been lying to Billy and Teddy about being a superhero
So she has plenty of baggage. But the thing about Kate is, she presents a fucking amazingly competent front. When I think about Kate, I think about her as the Batman of the Young Avengers set. She was the one bankrolling and encouraging the other YA to keep fighting, she's rich and kind of emotionally isolated, she presents this perfect in control facade that is both true and not true.
And I don't think, since Cassie (and possibly Eli left) that she has anyone about to look at her and go, 'okay, you're not being straight about this aspect of your life.'
I love that Clint and Kate are kind of accidental best friends, but I think Clint buys the image that Kate presents to the world when he should know better. (He also consistently undervalues his own importance to her, which cases him to act in ways that I bet Kate reads as him not caring about her, which makes her even less likely to confide her vulnerabilities to him.)
This makes me really interested to see an arc about Kate needing help or support and not being able to reach out for it (because let's face it, Kate-Katie is bad with emotional vulnerability) and seeing what happens next.
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When I think about Kate, I think about her as the Batman of the Young Avengers set
Oh my gosh. Can this be a meme? This needs to be a meme. Everyone thinks the Batman of Marvel is Tony Stark, wrong, it is Kate Bishop. :D
I'm looking at the panel again, and because she specifically says "your baggage" and not just "baggage," I wonder if what this is about is not whether Kate has emotional baggage of her own, but whether she's had to carry baggage for other people, literally and metaphorically. Which would make sense, because she then spends the rest of the Madripoor storyline showing Clint up by getting him out of a huge mess in ways that are physically and emotionally stressful to her.
But yeah, it would be interesting to see Kate needing support, because she is always saving Clint's butt before he even thinks to call for her, and I don't think she would be able to ask for his help in the same way, or that it would occur to him that she needed him to give it.
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I read that as he was going to write a letter to Jess and his relationship with Jess and how that ended was what was causing him to be drinking on the roof. I'm not 100% sure what Kate told him in their conversation that made him upset with her, but I was assuming it, again, related to Jess, although I could be wrong (I actually think we'll get more info on that conversation next issue).
What were you thinking was going on - slash - tell me more about your mixed feelings.
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Now, despite Jess and Bobbi and everything, I did ship Hawkeye/Hawkeye at first until I started to realize how he isn't really supportive of her having all her shit and having to put up with his stuff on top of that. Like he calls her a brat at the same moment of calling her awesome and just...
I don't want her hurt any more.
Then, she does complain about Clint at the party.
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And the fact that Kate can often realize that it's Clint's problem? That it's not HER, that she talks about that with other people, THAT SHE FUCKS CALLS CLINT ON IT TO HIS FACE? Ugh, it's just so hugely functional and healthy and wonderful.
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Pretty much.
Oh my gosh. Can this be a meme? This needs to be a meme. Everyone thinks the Batman of Marvel is Tony Stark, wrong, it is Kate Bishop. :D
Hell yes. And Tony Stark is a fucking warped mirror of Batman; no way is he the batman analogue in the Marvel-verse.
"your baggage" and not just "baggage," I wonder if what this is about is not whether Kate has emotional baggage of her own, but whether she's had to carry baggage for other people, literally and metaphorically. Which would make sense, because she then spends the rest of the Madripoor storyline showing Clint up by getting him out of a huge mess in ways that are physically and emotionally stressful to her.
I think it's a combination of both? Like, I think Clint thinks that Kate doesn't have baggage of her own -slash- has had to deal with other people's shit the way that Clint has (which is true as far as it goes, but doesn't tell the whole story) but I also think that there is this element to the story that's about the Hawkeye legacy, and passing down the name, and by the nature of that - that they both carry the name, that Kate was given it by Captain America when Clint was dead, means that Kate is, as she says, trading on Clint's name and part of his problems.
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Yeah. It's like there's this weird superhero trauma triage thing, and if you have never died and you still have relatives and you don't break down sobbing in team meetings, you're probably more functional than 90% of the people you know, no matter what else is wrong with you. So there's nobody to worry about you.
Like, how Batman is ostensibly supposed to be watching out for Robin and teaching him (her) things, but Batman is so screwed up he really can't take care of Robin? Robin probably takes care of Batman more than Batman takes care of Robin, because if he didn't have a kid around to cheer him up he would just be sad all the time.
...
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Right? Which I think is why Clint has this huge blind spot with regards to Kate. "Katie-kate? She's a functional adult! She's totally fine!" Not always, Clint, not always.
...latenightcuppa and this fic being responsible for the fact that I relate Hawkeye/Hawkey dynamics in terms of Batman & Robin. :P
Honestly, Kate and Clint read so clearly to me as equals in the way that they treat and view the other, that that metaphor doesn't totally work for me.
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