The Felicity Smoak Problem

[redbrunja]

Jennifer Crusie speaks the truth about why Felicity/Oliver is AWESOME and also what makes opposites-attract relationships work. I knew that Felicity’s role was unplanned but I did not know HOW UNPLANNED. Learning that the first smile that Oliver gives Felicity was because Stephan Amnell just couldn’t keep a straight face – and then they kept that in the show - fills me with unholy delight.

Also, oh my god, in Faking It Eve was originally the romantic lead opposite Davy Dempsey. I CAN'T EVEN.

Comments

[dotty.livejournal.com]

That blog entry/article is amazing, it spells out so much of why they work for me that I hadn't even really reflected too much on (her making him less dry and dull, especially, boy how true is that!). And this:
"They have, in short, the Felicity Smoak problem: you think as a writer you have control of your universe and you do, until your characters and your readers or viewers react in ways you didn’t foresee. At that point, you’d better learn to be flexible or go down fighting a losing battle. The characters are always right."
That? Needs to be tattooed on the foreheads of every writer in the TV biz so that they see it every time they look in the mirror because that is some gods honest truth right there. Writers have a bit too much of a God-complex, andI guess that's okay if you're doing a one-shot book or movie but with books and TV series it just doesn't fly. I feel more pessimistic about it though - I don't think they'll go the way of Felicity/Oliver as a legit, endgame ship. They'll tease it and shipper-bait us to keep fans around but in the end it'll be killed off somehow, and meanwhile they'll try to make Laurel interesting and keep introducing other women as potential love interests (starting with Black Canary next season) in the hopes of distracting/luring as many Olicity shippers as possible away. And depressingly it'll probably work well enough to keep them on the air for a buncha seasons. /Bitter cynic rant over

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I feel more pessimistic about it though - I don't think they'll go the way of Felicity/Oliver as a legit, endgame ship. They'll tease it and shipper-bait

To be honest, if it's good shipper bait, I would be down for it.

[12-12-12.livejournal.com]

Damn, now I feel all motivated to watch this show...

[errant-shadows.livejournal.com]

Why I am absolutely against Felicity/Oliver:

She is WAY too good for him; and,

I think the writers are determined to have an Oliver/Laurel endgame. Early season two will be critical for that; they have a lot of work to do if they're going to make Laurel's character in any way interesting (and to be fair, if it works, I may eventually be able to get behind the idea of her with Oliver.) However, as cool as Felicity and Oliver would be together, I don't want her to be just a stand in until Laurel becomes a viable character. She deserves better than to have the writers use her like that. At this point, I honestly think that Felicity/Oliver is best shipped through fanfiction, because even if the show does go there, I doubt its ability to do them any justice.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

She is WAY too good for him; and,

True...


However, as cool as Felicity and Oliver would be together, I don't want her to be just a stand in until Laurel becomes a viable character. She deserves better than to have the writers use her like that.

Agreed.


At this point, I honestly think that Felicity/Oliver is best shipped through fanfiction, because even if the show does go there, I doubt its ability to do them any justice.

I feel that way about SO MANY ships.

[errant-shadows.livejournal.com]

Also, Felicity and Oliver have a fantastic working relationship, and I'd hate to see anything get in the way of that. It would be horrible if the show did put them together, only for it to ruin what they already have. The writers would probably just use any romance between them as a vessel for angst and drama, rather than putting any serious effort into developing them as a couple.

I'd rather never see them together (in canon) than have them brought together badly.

BTW, as the article said, crusading do-gooder is exactly how I've always described Laurel - word for word. She needs a few flaws to give her substance - being preachy and looking down her nose at the other characters doesn't count.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

BTW, as the article said, crusading do-gooder is exactly how I've always described Laurel - word for word. She needs a few flaws to give her substance - being preachy and looking down her nose at the other characters doesn't count.

Yep. I have a couple characters in multiple shows who either never worked or stopped working and should be killed off, and she's one of them.

God, could you imagine how much fun Laurel would have been if the show had, I don't know, LET HER REMAIN FURIOUS at the dickhead who cheated on her and was instrumental in her sister's death? If she wanted Oliver to suffer horribly but connected emotionally with his vigilante who was working to save the city? And then found out the truth and was once more horribly betrayed? I mean, I probably still wouldn't ship it, but that would be interesting tv!

[errant-shadows.livejournal.com]

A sense of humour would be good, for a start.

I honestly don't understand why the show gave Laurel and Oliver such a convoluted history. Why would we want to ship them when they're obviously so terrible together? If it had been handled really, really well (and Laurel wasn't a cardboard princess) then maybe it could have worked, but it just wasn't. Their ship was dead for me about three episodes in, and it was aggravating because I knew even then that if the show survived long enough it would eventually push them together.

You know what would be interesting to see? Oliver making Felicity an executive for Queen Industries. She'd be amazing as the corporate badass by day, vigilante hacker by night.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

You know what would be interesting to see? Oliver making Felicity an executive for Queen Industries. She'd be amazing as the corporate badass by day, vigilante hacker by night.

I LOVE IT!

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I love Crusie SFM and her thoughts on relationships (even when I don't know/watch the ship in question) and I read that with a lot of interest. (I also love when a TV show deviates from plans to follow a real chemistry between actors/characters. See: my icon.)

But just after I read her piece, I also read that they cast a new girl to play the Black Canary on the show. Which was very interesting because I thought the main chick, Katie Cassidy's Laurel, was supposed to (eventually?) be the Black Canary. I wonder if the writers realized Laurel wasn't doing it, and there was a "Felicity problem" and this is their answer. Seems silly to me. Why not let this Felicity just be the love interest? It's not like they don't change things for TV and movie versions anyway!

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Which was very interesting because I thought the main chick, Katie Cassidy's Laurel, was supposed to (eventually?) be the Black Canary. I wonder if the writers realized Laurel wasn't doing it,

Laurel was clearly supposed to be Black Canary, and I feel like the fact that they cast cast a different actress is that role is them reacting to the fact that Laurel isn't working. Black Canary is a pretty big part of the Green Arrow mythology - I can see them not wanting to completely let go of that character (and frankly, I feel like the show needs more kick ass ladies).

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Could Felicity not have been the BC though? Maybe not?

(My one true Ollie is still Justin Hartley anyway. ;) And I really liked him with Chloe.)

[empressearwig.livejournal.com]

Do you want more spoilers regarding the black canary casting?

Laurel is still going to be Black Canary unless they drastically rewrite DC comics history. But her character was never the first Black Canary. So supposedly this casting is supposed to help Laurel along on her character's journey to being Black Canary. We'll see. I have my doubts that Katie Cassidy can play that, but that's more to do with the fact that I don't think better writing would solve her chemistry problem which is that she has none.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Oh I see! I didn't realize there was more than one BC. That makes more sense now. Though I agree you can't fake chemistry.

[jtrevizo-1013.livejournal.com]

The thing with Arrow is that similarly to Smallville they CAN leave the DC canon world and strike off in their own direction. In reality they already have: John Diggle isn't Oliver's right hand man, the Undertaking and Moira Queen was never a thing, Thea is out of nowhere and has a relationship with Roy Harper (the real Speedy), Oliver helped create the Huntress (after sleeping with her) and Star City is being called Starling City.

So let's just go ahead and go one further - in the DC universe Dinah Lance is Black Canary, yet the Dinah Lance that is in Arrow is actually Laurel Dinah Lance's mom. And the Black Canary arc is including a third unnamed character... All season 1 I haven't been invested in Laurel's character (I can't say if it is the writing or Katie Cassidy's performance) but with her new sense of purpose she could be written out with a job opportunity in another city, clearing the way for the characters with actual chemistry: Oliver and Felicity.

This is the reason TV shows are 'adapted' from source material... let's see if the WB execs realize the lighting in a bottle they found by accident and run with it.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

All season 1 I haven't been invested in Laurel's character (I can't say if it is the writing or Katie Cassidy's performance)

It's the writing. They made super-terrible writing choices and I feel like the best actress on earth couldn't have made Oliver and Laurel work. When they actually get her decent stuff (there were a couple of scenes with her dad, a couple of scenes with Tommy), the actress is, at the least, competent.

[empressearwig.livejournal.com]

It's not just the writing, though. I mean, yes, the writing was part of it. But Katie Cassidy has a severe lack of chemistry problem. The entire rest of the cast sparks off each left, right and center, and she's just over here in no man's land of SOMETIMES having chemistry with people she's supposed to have it with. I mean, for god's sake, the actor playing her father has more chemistry with Stephen Amell than she does and it's not like his part is that much better written.

And for me, it's the chemistry that's the problem. You can fix bad acting. Look at how much Stephen Amell improved over the course of the season. (Have you actually finished season one, btw? Or are you still tumblr watching?) You can't fix lack of chemistry, especially not when you have so many other actors around you that have it.

[jtrevizo-1013.livejournal.com]

I agree that Katie's chemistry with Stephen is poor compared to a lot of the cast, which explains a lot of the fanfic/shipping out there (I think there's a very active ship for Amell and every cast member, but some are larger than others). In looking at pics from SDCC they had lots of non-panel events and you can see Bets & Amell just happily posing like its no big thing, they're having fun hanging together, etc. but the pics with him and Cassidy seem much more forced.

I really wonder if Katie expected the role to be different and has been disappointed with where her character has gone or if she has never been comfortable with the role and the challenges of the character's arc have made her feel like it is more of a paycheck than a fun gig... ???

:-/

[empressearwig.livejournal.com]

I think the only people I don't ship Oliver with are his mother (and it's not because of lack of chemistry) and Laurel. I can see an argument for EVERYTHING else. I can't remember the last time I watched a show and was so willing to just dump the characters in a shipping blender and see what came out, knowing that I'm going to be reasonably happy with the result no matter what.

And yeah, she does seem disconnected from the rest of the cast. I follow all of them on twitter and on the way to comic con you get David Ramsay and Betts and Amell all tweeting pictures of each other sleeping and Amell whining about being so far away and then there's her. Hell, they all still seem closer to Colin Donnell. I know twitter isn't reality and maybe they're all besties on set, but still.

It would be interesting to know what she was told about the role before taking it. It would also be interesting to know how much say they had in casting her, since she's a CW staple actress, and they were taking on a lot of other not hugely known cast members.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I mean, for god's sake, the actor playing her father has more chemistry with Stephen Amell than she does and it's not like his part is that much better written.

This is true.

(Have you actually finished season one, btw? Or are you still tumblr watching?)

I think I'm on, like, episode 18?

[errant-shadows.livejournal.com]

I try really, really hard not to condemn actors for the roles they're in, no matter how terrible the character is.

For a start, it's up to the producers/casting director to ensure that the actor has the right sort of chemistry with their colleagues on screen. That's not something you can fake, and if it's not there from the start then they're pretty much screwed even before filming begins.

Then there's the dialogue and story arcs, and let's face it, how many times have writers made terrible choices trying to force a character into a particular plotline, because that's what works for the story they have planned in their heads, only for it to blow up in their faces?

And lastly it's up to the director to bring out the emotions in a scene, to ensure lines are delivered with a degree of pathos that brings the characters to life.

None of those things are the responsibility of an actor; ultimately, acting ability can make or break a character, but if none of the foundational elements are present to begin with, then they're left with nothing to work with - something that unfortunately happens quite a lot.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

None of those things are the responsibility of an actor; ultimately, acting ability can make or break a character, but if none of the foundational elements are present to begin with, then they're left with nothing to work with - something that unfortunately happens quite a lot.

Exactly.

Also, I feel like, especially with CW actresses, but really, across the board, this is this tendency to be really bitchy about actresses for characters that fandom doesn't like, in this skeevy creepy from the hate on the character themselves.

[errant-shadows.livejournal.com]

Absolutely.

There have been times when I've seen such actors in other things, and actually been surprised by how terrible they were, because their acting really did suck - not just how their character (the one I'm most familiar with) was portrayed.

Other times I've been quite impressed, because the actor proved how good they were when they had the opportunity to draw on a character with actual substance, rather than a cardboard puppet the writers wanted to move around the plot like a chesspiece.