You Bitches Keep Your Mouth Off Suki

[redbrunja]

Dear Avatar fandom,

The next time I find someone saying (via explicit text or via lyrics in a vid) that Suki is:

-a fling of Sokka's

-seduced him

-isn't worthy of him

-somehow did him wrong

-is not heart-wrenching important to him,

I will smack you with metal fans until the stupid bleeds out of you.

I do no care if you ship him with Toph. I do not care if you ship him with Yue. I do not care if you ship him with Ty Lee.

But fucking respect the relationship he has with Suki and stop trying to cheapen what is arguably the second most important female relationship in his entire life. (fyi, Katara is #1 in that category.)

No love,
redbruna

Comments

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

"-isn't worthy of him"

Didn't I once do a whole rant about people saying that about female characters? (I don't know...I was pissed about everything resembling fandom for a few weeks there and ranting left and right.)

"-somehow did him wrong"

How? No, really, HOW???

You know your Avatar posts generally just make me glad I don't remotely participate in the fandom outside of posts on my f-list, right? (The whole fandom is just so rabidly obsessed with shipping and I have no desire to ship anything there except a bit with Suki/Sokka.)

(People ship him with Yue? Why? From her first scene, she was obviously meant to be nothing more than the tragic first love to give him some angst along the way...)

*finds the idea of hating any female character of even remote important on Avatar silly in the extreme*

(Also, you forgot Zuko...Yes, there are Zuko/Sokka shippers...)

[pikabot]

(People ship him with Yue? Why? From her first scene, she was obviously meant to be nothing more than the tragic first love to give him some angst along the way...)

Some of us thought his relationship with her was sweet and endearing and felt very natural. Others of us like the bittersweet element caused by said tragedy.

(Personally, I can't decide if I like Sokka/Suki or Sokka/Yue more. They come out pretty much even for me)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I like the maturity shown by the writers when dealing with both those relationships: i.e. that both Suki and Yue were mentioned as people he missed within two episodes of each other, while neither one was there.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Oh, I thought it made perfect sense in the story and definately had a degree of sweetness to it. It's just that where it was going was so obvious from the moment he spotted her that it turned off any ability I had to get invested(it pretty much followed the relationship trope, scene for scene. Which worked just fine and fit well for Sokka and his story, but was so obvious I was kinda counting off the scenes as they came, if that makes sense.)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Yes, you did, and while I'm a little more okay with that than you are, it need to take the form of, "i think x character is bad for y character because of such-and-such character trait." That is an argument I understand.

How? No, really, HOW???

I would love to know. I mean, really, tell me what she did that was so, so bad. Because Avril Levine's "Sk8ter Boi" - that is a bad, bad song to try and make work for Suki/Sokka, particularly when you cast her in the role of 'dumb girl who didn't support him.'

(People ship him with Yue? Why? From her first scene, she was obviously meant to be nothing more than the tragic first love to give him some angst along the way...)

I liked Yue and how their story played out, and understand why people ship them. Also, I find it adorable that Sokka so clearly has a type: the ones who are out of his league. ^_^

(Also, you forgot Zuko...Yes, there are Zuko/Sokka shippers...)

Avatar fandom, for the most part, allows me to forget that there is such a thing as 'slash' and I take that as the gift that it truly is.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

"Yes, you did, and while I'm a little more okay with that than you are, it need to take the form of, "i think x character is bad for y character because of such-and-such character trait." That is an argument I understand."

Yes, but most don't bother with that, and about half the ones that do tend to be covering for "I don't want her near him because I want him/only think he should be with this type."

The Yue story worked just fine, but it was so obvious that it turned off my ability to invest in it.

Me on IMs when Sokka spots her: "Sokka's going to fall for that girl, and then she'll die, right?"
Buddy: "You read too much."
Me: "So I'm right?"

Sokka definately has a thing for girls out of his league. It's one of the few tropes that I tend to love pretty much every time I encounter it. (One of the things that makes me like Kyo/Yuya despite his immense unworthiness...he's so absurdly into her yet convinced that not only is he no good for her, but that she's in love with someone else, who he considers to be a better person.)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Me on IMs when Sokka spots her: "Sokka's going to fall for that girl, and then she'll die, right?"
Buddy: "You read too much."
Me: "So I'm right?"

Ha! But yes. I actually like Yue a lot more knowing that she is mentioned again, such as in the Swamp and with Suki. That made her much more real to me - that she wasn't just a three episode character who is then forgotten about.

t's one of the few tropes that I tend to love pretty much every time I encounter it. (One of the things that makes me like Kyo/Yuya despite his immense unworthiness...he's so absurdly into her yet convinced that not only is he no good for her, but that she's in love with someone else, who he considers to be a better person.)

Oh, man, talk about a bulletproof kink. Yes. I'm reading this one author who writes Sukara/Kakashi, and in each of her stories there is a slightly different flavor of that going through each story, and it's delightful. (But I only like it if it's the guy thinking he's unworthy. Nothing pisses me off more than the girl thinking that.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

It, honestly, is about the only bulletprooof kink I have, and can make me love things I normally wouldn't, whether it goes both ways or not. It goes along with the guy who's so blatant in how much he adores the girl without realizing that he shows it.

I think we love it in one gender and hate it in the other because of this:

When the guy thinks it, it's usually because there's that element in canon, wether stated or implied. It indicates admiration and respect, and, frankly, we want someone to feel that way about us. However, there's never the feeling that he actually ISN'T good enough for her(even if he isn't) because it's made clear that his affection and commitment makes up for it.

When it's the girl thinking that, it's usually because the writer-rather a fan in fic or meta, or the original writer-really doesn't think she's good enough for him, and is either a necessary evil as a love interest, just in the way, etc.

Or maybe(I hope) better put:

With the guy having that feeling, there's the feeling of "rightness" because even if he isn't good enough,they're stillright for each other, in that interpretation at least. When it's the girl having that feeling, it's usually because of "Shipping/pairing for the sake of shipping/pairing" as opposed to something right for the characters.

It also has our gut reaction to the mass fandom "men are better than women."

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Oh, leave fandom out of it: we hate it when women are portrayed as not good enough because so much of our culture tells us it's true.

When the guy thinks it, it's usually because there's that element in canon, wether stated or implied. It indicates admiration and respect, and, frankly, we want someone to feel that way about us. However, there's never the feeling that he actually ISN'T good enough for her(even if he isn't) because it's made clear that his affection and commitment makes up for it

*nods* Well put.

It goes along with the guy who's so blatant in how much he adores the girl without realizing that he shows it.

That is always awesome.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

"Oh, leave fandom out of it: we hate it when women are portrayed as not good enough because so much of our culture tells us it's true. "

Yes, but fandom tells us that that's true. And...honestly, so much of it, no matter how it's put, really does just seem to be not wanting a character you like to be all about/committed to someone that's actually good for them.

Which, really, is another factor. In so many pairings, or at least the ones I go for, there's the element of him not being good enough for her, but he loves her enough to make up for it, but also the element of her being good for him, but not necessarily him being good for her.

Which, IMO, is a part of the backlash against female characters..they're able to do something good for the guy, and you know that usually, he benefits more from it, from a technical perspective. Even if people don't want to realize it, when a character you think is hot/awesome/great/etc. needs someone to given them purpose or drive or help them control themselves or ground them or whatever, that means there's something to that character that isn't perfect" that there's a flaw in them that they need help with. No one wants to admit the person they like is flawed, and combine that with the "my woobie/hottie" reaction most women have to males in fiction, and there's a backlash. Then, of course, there's the fact that female characters tend to acknowledge their flaws and weaknesses more than males do, which tends to point out the flaws and weaknesses of the reader/viewer.

(I hope that made some sort of sense.)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Which, really, is another factor. In so many pairings, or at least the ones I go for, there's the element of him not being good enough for her, but he loves her enough to make up for it, but also the element of her being good for him, but not necessarily him being good for her.

Which, IMO, is a part of the backlash against female characters..they're able to do something good for the guy, and you know that usually, he benefits more from it, from a technical perspective. Even if people don't want to realize it, when a character you think is hot/awesome/great/etc. needs someone to given them purpose or drive or help them control themselves or ground them or whatever, that means there's something to that character that isn't perfect" that there's a flaw in them that they need help with. No one wants to admit the person they like is flawed, and combine that with the "my woobie/hottie" reaction most women have to males in fiction, and there's a backlash. Then, of course, there's the fact that female characters tend to acknowledge their flaws and weaknesses more than males do, which tends to point out the flaws and weaknesses of the reader/viewer.

That is an excellent, excellent point. I especially like how you pinpoint WHY the male-not-worthy-of-the-female is so powerful. Because it's TRUE. While I was reading this, I was just running through all the pairings it works for, and you're right, most of the time, the guy is much, much, better off for being with the female, but the girl isn't getting that same kind of compensation.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, when I try to think of pairings I like, most of it is pure "coming together of equals"(like Zoe/Wash, kinda Will/Elizabeth...socially, of course, there's a huge difference, but they balance each other out perfectly) or the male benefits more or should just thank heaven he landed the girl(Kyo? In no universe will he ever be good enough for a nice girl like Yuya. Madmartigan? So out of his league with Sorcha that it's cute. Veronica/Logan? Speaks for itself. Etc.)

Thinking of the reverse, where the girl benefits more...well, there's Faith/Wood, though, to be honest I really liked their relationship and I think he's one of the best things to ever happen to her, but I just don't see them as more than friends a couple years down the road. (I'm told, though, that the season 8 comics addresses that, so I have to read at least that part of it...really, the only thing that interests me about it.) Max/Logan is a possibility, but while she benefits more personally, she makes his goals a lot more possible, and does things no one else can for him(even Alec-who seriously needed to get with Asha-is only there because Max is the first person, aside from Rachel, to ever care about him as more than a tool.)

Honestly, in general, i'm fine with the guy benefitting more, if only because it often just makes them that much more devoted, and lets face it, monomania can be pretty hot if you can understand where it's coming from.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

So much word.

Honestly, in general, i'm fine with the guy benefitting more, if only because it often just makes them that much more devoted, and lets face it, monomania can be pretty hot if you can understand where it's coming from.

And I am the lead of the "monogamy is sexy" choir.

This reminds me of Lily and Marshall from How I Met Your Mother, and how they are both incredibly codependant, but because they're both EQUALLY codepedant it comes across as funny and sexy and not creepy or disturbing.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

One other thing I meant to mention before is the whole "I want to be loved" thing that seems to be behind a lot of shipping. It seems, though, that it comes from two directions: "I want to see the love, even if I can't have it myself" and "I don't want someone else to have all of that love." The second ties into the whole male benefits more/female acknowledges weaknesses/etc. stuff. Somebody not perfect gets the love and devotion that you long for, and you don't like that. One of the explanations I've seen for slash is that slash fans seem to identify more with male characters than female, so they slash the one they identify with with the one they find hot(often also the one prone to expressions of love, conventional or otherwise.)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

And can I just say, that hearing so many women say the identify more with men than women really disturbs me?

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

For fuck's sake, when Azula taunted him about her in DOBS, that was the first time we've ever seen that boy cry since his father left to fight.

Oh my god, you're right. I haven't even thought about that.

And yeah, in fic, whenever someone explicitly or implicitly implies that Suki isn't important, this is what I hear in me head: "Ah, so you want Sokka with Ty Lee/Azula/Yue and so are going to talk trash about Suki because you're not a good enough writer to handle someone loving someone once and then growing apart."

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

See, Suki/Sokka is in the unique position of being fairly easy to write out of, despite how much they are in love.

On Suki's end, you can say that she gave up on Sokka, because being in love with him was just too painful.

On Sokka's end, you can kill Suki off quite easily.

It just floors me that no one goes for the obvious, reasonable ways to write either of them out of that relationship.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

And Ty Lee/Yue/Azula/Toph trash talking Suki? In front of Sokka?

He may be more likely to yell and scream at them, then be on his knees begging for them.

Hell yes. And I've yet to read one of them saying anything to him - it's always the authorial voice, and how they describe her.

I think it's because they want to deny that Sokka had any feelings for Suki. Now if I am writing a Toph/Aang, I cannot deny that Aang has feelings for Katara.

Exactly! Same if I'm writing Katara/Zuko. You can't just decide the a character who is show to care about another character doesn't, not unless you give a damn good in character reason.

But some writers don't realize this. They could create a lot of drama, a lot of tension from Sokka's feelings for Suki for another pairing, but they chose to take the easy and simple route.

And thus, end up writing something that's not very good.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I bet the poor man thinks about her everyday, wondering what's happened to her.

Yeah, now. I'm still a little miffed that she doesn't get a mention from when they find out that Azula snuck into Ba Sing Se until Azula is taunting him about it.

And yeah, Suki teaching him to respect the female gender is a TERRIBLE thing. All she did was prove to him that females can do anything men can! What's wrong with that? Sure she used sarcasm, sure she made him wear a dress, and thrown him across the floor, but the stubborn boy needed it! He wasn't going to learn to respect woman if they just told him to back off, Suki had to prove that woman were equal in strength as men are.

Yeah, cause god forbid that Sokka grow and change. He deserved everything she dished out, and Suki was kind enough to take it no farther than it needed to be for Sokka to get the point. She has more restrain than i would have shown.

See, I would call that kiss on the cheek their first kiss, but still - it's a far cry from dressing up in lingerie and seducing him from Loyal!Toph's side.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this is one of those situations where I'm calling dropped ball on the part of the writers.

Because they clearly did.

Now that I think about it, I am upset that Kataang and Maiko got all this screen time, when we didn't even get 5 seconds of Sokka wondering and worrying where Suki is

Oh, man, you're right! How come we never got a pensive Sokka moment? That sucks.

EXACTLY! When he apologized to her, she did not make him feel at all guilty about it. "I am girl too." She handled it very well, better than most people would have! Someone else would have probably rubbed what he said in his face.


Suki's maturity has always impressed me. I think I've talked about this with you before.

And ran off without saying thank you to Toph, for saving his lover's life! If you want to blame someone for Sokka caring about Suki's safety, then blame Sokka! Suki didn't do anything!

Hee! Gods, that was such a hilarious scene. It's so clear that they only had eyes for each other.

[pikabot]

"-is not heart-wrenching important to him,"

ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

What kind of moron would say this? Did they not SEE the Day of Black Sun? How could you possibly miss something that obvious--

Oh, wait. This is Avatar fandom.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I think they're just bitchy because

a.) Suki's more awesome than they could ever be
b.) she likes him back
c.) oh,yeah, did I mention Sokka was crazy about her?

I just... the minute you try to imply that Suki is not important, or a fling, I automatically disregard everything you're trying to say.

[iapetusneume.livejournal.com]

I don't understand some fans. See, my initial response to Suki was that she was pure and concentrated Awesome. Because it isn't just any woman who can get Sokka to dress in drag and teach him how to fight like a woman.

And I shop Sokka with Yue too. But then there's the whole thing where Yue dies, so I had no problem with Sokka moving on. And Suki/Sokka (you know she tops), is also uber awesome.

I seriously don't get some shipping wars.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Hell yes Suki's awesome! I so want an icon with Sokka kneeling before Suki, and text reading: "The PG version of a dominatrix" or something like that.

And it's not even a shipping war - it's that people write one pairing and then shoot themselves in the foot by being petty in their writing.

[dharmavati.livejournal.com]

Wait. WHUT?

Maybe it's just me but that fact that Sokka has many equally awesome love interests is what makes him so awesome. And I don't even mean it in a pimp-ish kind of way. He really does have this thing for romance with all these female characters. And I really don't get the need to restrict him to one female character (or the bashing of the other potential love interests).

C'MON GUYS. IT'S SOKKA.

And Suki's awesome. Awesome in a different way than Yue or Toph or Ty Lee. But STILL. AWESOME.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Well, I have to say I've noticed the the Water Tribe sibs are clearly a valuable commodity. ^_^

And Suki's so awesome.

[dharmavati.livejournal.com]

WELL. That is totally because the Water Tribers are consistently very good looking. Icon completely relevant.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Yes they are.

There's all damn badass too.

[the-sun-is-up.livejournal.com]

Aw man. Every time I think I am aware of all the different kinds of mind-numbing stupid that Avatar fandom engages in, I am introduced to YET ANOTHER.

Also you are totally right about Suki. She and Sokka go way back, and there's a lot of affection between them. You only have to watch DOBS to see that.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

*nods*

Exactly. I immediately think less of authors who

a.) clearly don't like Suki

and

b.) around go enough to write one character out a prior relationship.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Wacky pairings are not the problem. The problem is people not respecting who the characters actually are in order to make it "easier" to ship one person with someone else.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

God, I know.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

You know, Kennedy never did anything for me, but what? That makes no sense, given that we, you know, know who killed Tara, and Willow did her whole (very lovely) vengance thing.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

The first 2 seasons of Avatar are on DVD. A bit pricey, but if you keep a look out, they show up decently priced every once in a while.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Every time I say 'Buffy should have ended with 5 seasons' I think of missing out on Dark Willow, and it makes me sad.

Yes. Season 1 and 2 are available in their entirety, and parts of the third season.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Whhhaaaa....?

Geez.

I wasn't a big fan of Kennedy(she felt forced in to me to make sure Willow didn't end up alone, and as a result, her telling Willow she had to move on eventually almost had a feeling of "you have to move on now, with me" to it) but sheesh.

I may not care for her, but come on. If Tara had popped back up alive somehow, I have no doubts that Kennedy would have bowed out. She may have been too agressive for me(at least in terms of pursuing a woman who she knew lost the person she loved less than a year before) but she wasn't possessive, and she certainly wasn't evil.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, maturity in fandom is incredibly rare.

Really, I think Kennedy would have been more popular if they hadn't pushed Willow/Kennedy so hard. I just don't think we were ready to have Willow move on so quickly. (I had the same problem in season 4. Buffy/Angel was so self-destructive by the end that I was happy to see her move on, even though the pairing left me kinda ho-hum, but Willow/Tara took a while for me to warm up to-probably early s5-because I found it hard to believe that Willow was able to get over Oz and be in love with someone else in a handful of episodes.) Kennedy probably would have gone over a lot better if they'd made it clear that she liked Willow, but realized Willow wasn't quite ready yet.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah...it wasn't just that Willow needed time to recover from Tara's death, it was also that WE needed time to recover. There was a "well, she's dead, time to move on" element to the whole thing. It was like "What? WAIT! You told us to love her for three years! Don't tell us to just forget about her now!"

There's also the element that Willow was, for lack of a better word, out "personal connection" character. Xander is the entry one...we see the supernatural world through his everyman eyes, but Willow is the one the show always set up for us to feel the greatest emotional connection with, even moreso than Buffy. While they sometimes took things a bit too far with that, IMO, they put her forward as the one whose pain and fear we were supposed to feel, so her losses-Xander who never loved her the way she wanted, Oz whose nature forced them apart, and Tara, the "great love" who was taken from her-were the ones we were meant to feel the strongest. When you set a character up so that her pain is the pain we're meant to feel the most, it's going to be harder for us when she moves on. And, honestly, by the time Kennedy came along, I think we just didn't want to see Willow get hurt again, or in a position to be hurt like that again.

Another reason Ithink it's easier with Buffy is simply the fact that we expect the main character to have a love interest at any given time. It's just built into our minds to expect it. Plus, all Buffy's relationship just went really, really bad in the end, to the point where Buffy probably was better moving on. Willow's romances were the opposite...with both Tara and Oz, you could seethem together forever, if something hadn't separated them. And really, if Buffy hadn't come along, and Xander hadn't fallen for her, and then(after Willowwas with Oz) Cordy? They probably would have gotten together, and stayed that way.