You Bitches Keep Your Mouth Off Suki

[redbrunja]

Dear Avatar fandom,

The next time I find someone saying (via explicit text or via lyrics in a vid) that Suki is:

-a fling of Sokka's

-seduced him

-isn't worthy of him

-somehow did him wrong

-is not heart-wrenching important to him,

I will smack you with metal fans until the stupid bleeds out of you.

I do no care if you ship him with Toph. I do not care if you ship him with Yue. I do not care if you ship him with Ty Lee.

But fucking respect the relationship he has with Suki and stop trying to cheapen what is arguably the second most important female relationship in his entire life. (fyi, Katara is #1 in that category.)

No love,
redbruna

Comments

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Yes, you did, and while I'm a little more okay with that than you are, it need to take the form of, "i think x character is bad for y character because of such-and-such character trait." That is an argument I understand.

How? No, really, HOW???

I would love to know. I mean, really, tell me what she did that was so, so bad. Because Avril Levine's "Sk8ter Boi" - that is a bad, bad song to try and make work for Suki/Sokka, particularly when you cast her in the role of 'dumb girl who didn't support him.'

(People ship him with Yue? Why? From her first scene, she was obviously meant to be nothing more than the tragic first love to give him some angst along the way...)

I liked Yue and how their story played out, and understand why people ship them. Also, I find it adorable that Sokka so clearly has a type: the ones who are out of his league. ^_^

(Also, you forgot Zuko...Yes, there are Zuko/Sokka shippers...)

Avatar fandom, for the most part, allows me to forget that there is such a thing as 'slash' and I take that as the gift that it truly is.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

"Yes, you did, and while I'm a little more okay with that than you are, it need to take the form of, "i think x character is bad for y character because of such-and-such character trait." That is an argument I understand."

Yes, but most don't bother with that, and about half the ones that do tend to be covering for "I don't want her near him because I want him/only think he should be with this type."

The Yue story worked just fine, but it was so obvious that it turned off my ability to invest in it.

Me on IMs when Sokka spots her: "Sokka's going to fall for that girl, and then she'll die, right?"
Buddy: "You read too much."
Me: "So I'm right?"

Sokka definately has a thing for girls out of his league. It's one of the few tropes that I tend to love pretty much every time I encounter it. (One of the things that makes me like Kyo/Yuya despite his immense unworthiness...he's so absurdly into her yet convinced that not only is he no good for her, but that she's in love with someone else, who he considers to be a better person.)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Me on IMs when Sokka spots her: "Sokka's going to fall for that girl, and then she'll die, right?"
Buddy: "You read too much."
Me: "So I'm right?"

Ha! But yes. I actually like Yue a lot more knowing that she is mentioned again, such as in the Swamp and with Suki. That made her much more real to me - that she wasn't just a three episode character who is then forgotten about.

t's one of the few tropes that I tend to love pretty much every time I encounter it. (One of the things that makes me like Kyo/Yuya despite his immense unworthiness...he's so absurdly into her yet convinced that not only is he no good for her, but that she's in love with someone else, who he considers to be a better person.)

Oh, man, talk about a bulletproof kink. Yes. I'm reading this one author who writes Sukara/Kakashi, and in each of her stories there is a slightly different flavor of that going through each story, and it's delightful. (But I only like it if it's the guy thinking he's unworthy. Nothing pisses me off more than the girl thinking that.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

It, honestly, is about the only bulletprooof kink I have, and can make me love things I normally wouldn't, whether it goes both ways or not. It goes along with the guy who's so blatant in how much he adores the girl without realizing that he shows it.

I think we love it in one gender and hate it in the other because of this:

When the guy thinks it, it's usually because there's that element in canon, wether stated or implied. It indicates admiration and respect, and, frankly, we want someone to feel that way about us. However, there's never the feeling that he actually ISN'T good enough for her(even if he isn't) because it's made clear that his affection and commitment makes up for it.

When it's the girl thinking that, it's usually because the writer-rather a fan in fic or meta, or the original writer-really doesn't think she's good enough for him, and is either a necessary evil as a love interest, just in the way, etc.

Or maybe(I hope) better put:

With the guy having that feeling, there's the feeling of "rightness" because even if he isn't good enough,they're stillright for each other, in that interpretation at least. When it's the girl having that feeling, it's usually because of "Shipping/pairing for the sake of shipping/pairing" as opposed to something right for the characters.

It also has our gut reaction to the mass fandom "men are better than women."

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Oh, leave fandom out of it: we hate it when women are portrayed as not good enough because so much of our culture tells us it's true.

When the guy thinks it, it's usually because there's that element in canon, wether stated or implied. It indicates admiration and respect, and, frankly, we want someone to feel that way about us. However, there's never the feeling that he actually ISN'T good enough for her(even if he isn't) because it's made clear that his affection and commitment makes up for it

*nods* Well put.

It goes along with the guy who's so blatant in how much he adores the girl without realizing that he shows it.

That is always awesome.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

"Oh, leave fandom out of it: we hate it when women are portrayed as not good enough because so much of our culture tells us it's true. "

Yes, but fandom tells us that that's true. And...honestly, so much of it, no matter how it's put, really does just seem to be not wanting a character you like to be all about/committed to someone that's actually good for them.

Which, really, is another factor. In so many pairings, or at least the ones I go for, there's the element of him not being good enough for her, but he loves her enough to make up for it, but also the element of her being good for him, but not necessarily him being good for her.

Which, IMO, is a part of the backlash against female characters..they're able to do something good for the guy, and you know that usually, he benefits more from it, from a technical perspective. Even if people don't want to realize it, when a character you think is hot/awesome/great/etc. needs someone to given them purpose or drive or help them control themselves or ground them or whatever, that means there's something to that character that isn't perfect" that there's a flaw in them that they need help with. No one wants to admit the person they like is flawed, and combine that with the "my woobie/hottie" reaction most women have to males in fiction, and there's a backlash. Then, of course, there's the fact that female characters tend to acknowledge their flaws and weaknesses more than males do, which tends to point out the flaws and weaknesses of the reader/viewer.

(I hope that made some sort of sense.)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Which, really, is another factor. In so many pairings, or at least the ones I go for, there's the element of him not being good enough for her, but he loves her enough to make up for it, but also the element of her being good for him, but not necessarily him being good for her.

Which, IMO, is a part of the backlash against female characters..they're able to do something good for the guy, and you know that usually, he benefits more from it, from a technical perspective. Even if people don't want to realize it, when a character you think is hot/awesome/great/etc. needs someone to given them purpose or drive or help them control themselves or ground them or whatever, that means there's something to that character that isn't perfect" that there's a flaw in them that they need help with. No one wants to admit the person they like is flawed, and combine that with the "my woobie/hottie" reaction most women have to males in fiction, and there's a backlash. Then, of course, there's the fact that female characters tend to acknowledge their flaws and weaknesses more than males do, which tends to point out the flaws and weaknesses of the reader/viewer.

That is an excellent, excellent point. I especially like how you pinpoint WHY the male-not-worthy-of-the-female is so powerful. Because it's TRUE. While I was reading this, I was just running through all the pairings it works for, and you're right, most of the time, the guy is much, much, better off for being with the female, but the girl isn't getting that same kind of compensation.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, when I try to think of pairings I like, most of it is pure "coming together of equals"(like Zoe/Wash, kinda Will/Elizabeth...socially, of course, there's a huge difference, but they balance each other out perfectly) or the male benefits more or should just thank heaven he landed the girl(Kyo? In no universe will he ever be good enough for a nice girl like Yuya. Madmartigan? So out of his league with Sorcha that it's cute. Veronica/Logan? Speaks for itself. Etc.)

Thinking of the reverse, where the girl benefits more...well, there's Faith/Wood, though, to be honest I really liked their relationship and I think he's one of the best things to ever happen to her, but I just don't see them as more than friends a couple years down the road. (I'm told, though, that the season 8 comics addresses that, so I have to read at least that part of it...really, the only thing that interests me about it.) Max/Logan is a possibility, but while she benefits more personally, she makes his goals a lot more possible, and does things no one else can for him(even Alec-who seriously needed to get with Asha-is only there because Max is the first person, aside from Rachel, to ever care about him as more than a tool.)

Honestly, in general, i'm fine with the guy benefitting more, if only because it often just makes them that much more devoted, and lets face it, monomania can be pretty hot if you can understand where it's coming from.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

So much word.

Honestly, in general, i'm fine with the guy benefitting more, if only because it often just makes them that much more devoted, and lets face it, monomania can be pretty hot if you can understand where it's coming from.

And I am the lead of the "monogamy is sexy" choir.

This reminds me of Lily and Marshall from How I Met Your Mother, and how they are both incredibly codependant, but because they're both EQUALLY codepedant it comes across as funny and sexy and not creepy or disturbing.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

One other thing I meant to mention before is the whole "I want to be loved" thing that seems to be behind a lot of shipping. It seems, though, that it comes from two directions: "I want to see the love, even if I can't have it myself" and "I don't want someone else to have all of that love." The second ties into the whole male benefits more/female acknowledges weaknesses/etc. stuff. Somebody not perfect gets the love and devotion that you long for, and you don't like that. One of the explanations I've seen for slash is that slash fans seem to identify more with male characters than female, so they slash the one they identify with with the one they find hot(often also the one prone to expressions of love, conventional or otherwise.)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

And can I just say, that hearing so many women say the identify more with men than women really disturbs me?

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I...identify about equally with males and females? At least in anime/manga. Pretty much always females in other mediums. But when I identify with males, I have no interest in pairing them with the guy I find hot...I always just want to find them a sweet girlfriend(or boyfriend, if that actually is what they prefer.) But even then, the angst/story of the females still hits me harder a lot of the time, even if I don't identify with them at all.

Like, Ishida, the guy in this icon? He gives me so many "me at 16" moments(minus the stick up the butt, I hope) that it's almost creepy. But I could never dream of slashing him with the two guys I like, Ichigo and Renji(even though Ichigo's way too young for me.) For one thing, all three would literally die first. I'm not about to make a character OOC(and even if everything else is perfect, if you change that, you are changing the character) in my head or in fanfic, just so the character I connect with can get some action with the person I find hot. For another, Renji is absurdly hung up on his childhood friend, Rukia, and Orihime, another girl I like, has a massive crush on Ichigo that he'll probably reciprocate if he ever grows the brains to notice it. (And while I don't really ship anything in Bleach, Renji/Rukia and Ichigo/Orihime are about as close as I come, simply because Renji and Orihime are so obvious in their adoration, and Rukia and Ichigo so dense about it.)

Really, though, 2 out of 3 times, there isn't anyone I completely identify with. I don't need a POV or identification character to care about the characters or be interested in them or the story.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. You comment made me ponder. I don't need a 'this is me' character to get into a story, but if I care about the show, I'll end up with a favorite character (male or female, but more likely to be a girl) and if there is no women, it's less and less likely that I'll fall in love with the story.

Saiyuki's an odd duck in that respect.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Aye, I don't need an identification at all myself, though when there is one, it is a nice bonus. Well, sometimes. Even then they aren't always my favorites. Off the top of my head, the only exception to that is Sunbi in Dokebi Bride. Honestly, though, the "identification" thing is something I've only seen used to explain slash, making me think of justification.

I realized today that I've been cursed regarding fictional characters since I was 12. (And will likely post on this shortly.) The first 2 fictional characters I ever seriously fell for(though not in the crushing way...that started a bit later) were Jubilee in the X-Men comics, and Wren Ohmsford in Terry Brooks's Shannara series. Wren is barely an afterthought for Brooks, despite being the best character he ever created. Marvel doesn't care about about Jubilee, and fans love to hate her for not being Kitty Pryde.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Yeah... identification may have been the wrong word to use. What I mean is, while my favorite character may be male or female, if there aren't any females around, like, at all, I'm much, much less likely to get attached to the series.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I've always done much better with a female character to latch on to, from my earliest fictional experiences, but it's not until the last 6 months or so that I've pretty much lost tolerance for things if there's no girl around in an important role, no matter what that role is. I think the last thing to get by that was Scott Lynch's Lies of Locke Lamora, but even it had some awesome female characters in bit roles, but mostly got by on awesome wit and approach.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I'm the opposite; when I was younger, I would not read a book if there wasn't at least a girl in a strong secondary role. As I've gotten older, that has loosened slightly, but in all honesty, not that much.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I think there's just barely enough of an age difference between us that that, while I never really had the problem of finding things with female characters in them, it was sometimes easier to find things without that addressed the rest of my fictional needs. As I said earlier this week at my LJ, I lucked out in the my first fantasy(and really, first non-children's) book featured a strong female character...and them I read the rest of the series and learned that she was secondary to stupid farmboys. And not the kind who go off and become The Dread Pirate Roberts. I'd say they're closer to the Eragon variety, but, well...honestly, that would be mean to them. They don't deserve that.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

*nods*

I was really lucky. I started reading just as all the writers who hadn't had teenaged girl heroines grew up and say, 'we need teenaged girl heroines.'

I am truly blessed.