I Want The Time I Spend Reading Those 32 Chapters and Having Flashbacks To My Biopsych Class Back

[redbrunja]

You know what sucks? Spending the last three days reading a long, lovingly researched, well written fic about my OTP to realize three chapters for the end, aka 37 chapters in, that it has gradually done too many things that I hate it when Kakashi/Sakura writers do for me to continue to enjoy it.

Such as:

1.) Sakura's only useful skills are her medical ones.

2.) Sakura needing to be rescued over and over again.

3.) Having Sakura have issues about the fact that a.) Kakashi ignored her in favor of his other students b.) she isn't as strong as other characters - only by this time she should be and is repeated called better than Tsunade AND THEN repeatedly listing all the ways she's awesome without ever letting her BE awesome. I thought Kishimoto was the only person who pulled that level of take my word for it with Sakura.

4.) Giving Kakashi skills/information/techniques that don't really makes sense for him to have learned but that Sakura is in the logical position to know.

4.) "Oh, sensei, please instruct my utterly, innocent, virginal, clearly-never-even-read-any-of-the-trashy-romance-novels-that-Ino-has- undoubtedly-been-hooking-me-up-with-for-years virginal self in the ways of carnality with your magical cock!"

6.) Sakura going bare.

Now, I was recently reading an article in Cosmopolitan that talked about this - that more and more women are  removing all the hair from their genitals as well as from legs and underarms.

Personally, this bothers me.

I have no problem with keeping that area ...tidy, shall we say, but deliberately making a grown woman look more childish in order to look more desirable? Yeah. That dives into our whole culture of 'young is better' and wanting child-women and subtextual pedophilia. In the words of Jamie, from one of the many sequels to Outlander, while discussing a courtesan that Claire has spent the afternoon with at a spa:

Jamie: Bare? Like a wee lass?

Claire (delicately): she says some men find it erotic.

To which Jamie responded with a WTF? look, iirc.

Now, slightly less worrying but still no fun, is the prevalence of this kind of grooming in Sakura/Kakashi fic. I have read a lot of fanfic and until I started reading it for this pairing, I had NEVER come across that trope.

Frankly, it freaks me out.

Yeah, this is a teacher/student relationship, and there is a significant age gap, and I am the FIRST person to say don't back away from the implications of either of these.

HOWEVER, I like my OTPs consensual, and whenever Sakura completely depilatories her quim, especially at Kakashi's urging, it always goes to this not nice, 'Back the fuck away from your former student, now, you pervert,' place that makes any sexy that the author is trying to get from the scene (are they are ALWAYS trying to go for the sexy) go out the window faster than Kushina could defenestrate an enemy nin.

Comments

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

You know, until you and another person mentioned it, that thought never even occured to me.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

*giggles*

[photoash.livejournal.com]

Actually if you want to go with the whole "this is Japan" shaving ones pubic area in Japan is a big deal and girls don't do it >_> I've read that mainly if women are shaved in Japan it's to date foreign men >_> and usnig "date" there loosely...

That's just the 'stereotype' :) and after all in Japan there aren't "lesbians" ... my friend studied at an all girls college for a year and anytime she'd use the word for lesbian the other girlsw ould freak out and tell her that's not a nice word and wonder where she heard it from -- all the while they would grab her tits and ass when they were drunk >_> so who knows...

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Hilariously put. In fic though, less hilarious and more incredibly painful and irritating.

Oh, yes, so irritating. That's one reason that I enjoy shipping pairings where it's fairly obvious that both parties aren't virgins - it makes everything so much easier, you know? But I still think most virgins have SOME idea of what goes where, you know?

(Actually, I find it a kiss of death to most fanfic, but thats just me.)

It's not just you. And frankly, what bugs me is that I have NEVER seen in any pairing fics besides kakasaku, wear I keep running into it over and over again.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I would pay so much money to have been there. It reminds me of some of the conversations my friends and I have had.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

It's probably because you're female AND date girls, so you're likely to know answers to these questions, but you're not going after the same prey, so to speak, so they can ask you without potentially screwing up their own chances.

[pikabot]

I think you might be reading a bit much into a simple fashion trend. I'm personally in favor of shaved pubic hair, on the 'Sneezing during cunnilingus is always awkward' ticket.

(those fics do sound skeezy as hell, though)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

*gigglefit*

Thank you for that. It puts a whole nother perspective on it.

And yeah, the shaved pubic hair was always accompanied by other things that made my back go up.

[pikabot]

Really, it's hard to write about someone asking their partner to change some aspect of themselves (not counting, you know, 'stop using them drugs' and the like) without it coming off badly. It's sort of an inherently possessive and creepy action.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

It really, really does. And it feels way, way different than something like, 'hey, I've always had this fantasy about such-and-such.'

It's sort of an inherently possessive and creepy action.

Word.

[sureasdawn.livejournal.com]

Wait. What? I don't have issues with whether people do it or not, but it just doesn't seem like something that they'd have to have a conversation about.

I'm glad I managed to miss these fics. And I really hope I'm not guilty of any of these points, the little of that pairing I might have written.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Wait. What? I don't have issues with whether people do it or not, but it just doesn't seem like something that they'd have to have a conversation about.

You'd think. But no.

Also, great icon. It that while Sakura was fangirling Sasuke/Sai?

[sureasdawn.livejournal.com]

It seemed particularly appropriate.

Sakura has a much dirtier mind than I think people give her credit for.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

So appropriate. And I totally think Sakura has a dirty mind - I think she reads romance novels that are surprisingly naughty (and yaoi) and Icha Icha is surprisingly romantic.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Which fic, may I ask? I wonder if I might have had the same reaction to it.

I haven't really noticed #6, but I might just not have been paying attention. I haven't noticed that in ANY fandom, actually. Usually authors don't talk about that, or if they do, words like "trim" come up more than "bare". ::shrug:: But I'll probably notice it more now that you pointed it out. Some things are just like that.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I sent the fic to you, because the author seems like a nice woman I do try not to name names.

Trust me, if you've been reading the fics where it's there, you would have noticed. It's never just a passing description, it's always practically a plot point.

[iapetusneume.livejournal.com]

This is the sort of time I wish I remembered to hit the post I saw on sex practices in Japan in my memories, and now I don't even remember who I saw post it. (For all I know, it could have been you.)

I'll sumarize, just to be sure. Said post was written by an American who had spent a long period of time in Japan, and had two boyfriends while she was there. She talked about how sex is different there. One of the things she said was that there were "rules" of sorts that no one ever talked about. These rules often involved cleanliness and such, so I could see how pubes would get into that (even though the poster didn't say anything about it). But if Kakashi/Sakura is the only pairing with a girl in it in the series that is addressing this issue at all, then there is a problem for sure.

Also, there are ways to get around pubes while writing. They don't have to be mentioned in smut but can still be there.

I don't know. I read too much into stuff when it's late in the evening. I'm sorry!

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

It would totally believe that. And I bet that's wear the whole 'shower before sex' thing comes into play.

As for the shaved specifically... it bugs me in general, and the fact that it seems to be specific to this one, fourteen year age difference pairing... is troublesome.

I don't know. I read too much into stuff when it's late in the evening. I'm sorry!

Hey, I'm the one talking about cultural worries based on hair removal practices.

[iapetusneume.livejournal.com]

smillaraaq found the article I was talking about, just so you know.

But I do agree with shaving down there bugging me too in general. And it does come off as skeevy with the pairing.

I'm also being reminded of the Vagina Monologues now. Have you ever had a chance to see them?

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I actually haven't seen the VM.

And yeah, with that pairing, and Sakura's body type, and the age difference, adding the shaving just...

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

That sounds like this article (http://supacat.tumblr.com/post/33332873/sex-and-flirting-in-japan-originally-from-lj-user) (originally on LJ, but that post seems to be locked now). Anecdata, of course, from one person with a rather limited outsider's perspective, but an interesting read if you don't try to apply it too broadly as blanket truths about Japan as a whole.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, that's the article I was referring to. And yeah, I do realize that one person's experience isn't the end-all, but that's what I was reminded of.

Thanks for digging up a link! I've wanted to show a few friends it.

[iapetusneume.livejournal.com]

Ok, that anon comment above was me. LJ just logged me out randomly. >.o

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you! That was insanely interesting to read!

[renegadekitsune.livejournal.com]

Ok. I can say this, some girls shave at certain times of the month for cleanly purposes. So far I've only known one girl who ever did it for a guy and she regreted it the next few days because it iched when it grew back. (I laughed and then took her out for a milkshake, poor thing deserved it.)

I do see where you're coming from, I have encountered it in fics before, and yes it is creepy as hell.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Poor girl. She does deserve a milkshake.

You've actually encounted it in other pairing fics? That almost makes me feel better. I keep feeling like it was this weird kakasaku specific thing, and it was creeping me out.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

Well, if it makes you feel better, I've actually seen it in a slash context. (Gojyo/Sanzo pairing, it's not just a request but the kappa actually makes a very elaborate, erotic production out of doing the shaving, and it's presented as being primarily for the purpose of introducing the shavee to the sensation play aspect of it all, with the requester's enjoyment of the process and visuals being a secondary thing.)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Oh, see, now I think that would play much much better.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'd link you but, y'know, waaaay slashier than you want to read. But I can easily see the same dynamic working in a KakaSaku setting: making it clear that he doesn't think there's anything wrong or unattractive about the hair and that he already thinks she's just unbelievably hot, but the sheer novelty value of this temporary, reversible change in look would add even more to the hotness, and it'll make her feel really, really good. If it were presented like that, and with Sakura being really curious for herself about his latest pervy idea instead of just sort of meekly going along with it to please him, that could be fun and sexy instead of skeevy. And all the more so if she gets to come up with fun ideas to try out on him in return. (In the 353 fic, there wasn't a direct tit-for-tat in this particular scene, but it's only one chapter of a much longer fic and it's been made quite clear in previous sections that Gojyo's more than willing to play along with any kinky ideas Sanzo has, so that background attitude of reciprocity is already well-established.)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Yeah, or even Sakura picking it up from Ino and being like, 'mmm,' and surprising Kakashi would be a kick to read.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

*nods* And having her be so much more of an active party in it would take away the skeezy elements as well as just being way more fun to read. Lack of experience does NOT have to mean lack of ideas. She has a brain, she has medical training, she has friends to talk to, she lives in a society where it's clearly not hard to get your hands on naughty books...just because she hasn't done much doesn't mean she hasn't thought about it! That's one of the many things I love about that first fic I'd recced to you -- she may be physically inexperienced, and ignorant of how unconsciously tantalizing some of the things she says and does are, but she's not a clueless idiot. And Kakashi is intensely aware of the potentially skeevy aspects of their ages and past relationship.

And even if it were his idea to start with and she's the one who expands on the idea of reciprocity, that could lead to a really cute, sexy scene of fun and games in the shower with shaving supplies. I mean, if Kakashi is supposed to be such a huge perv, what do you think would turn him on more, some blushing reluctant wallflower who has to be coaxed into doing ANYTHING, or a girl who's game and creative?

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Exactly! And why, one earth, does Sakura ALWAYS have to be a virgin? I mean, I know it's the most logical assumption, but she doesn't HAVE to be.

[oyster-district.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the only way for this to be okay is if she asks him to shave it, too. In fact, there lies fic potential in this, methinks. *prods* (C'mon, you know you want Sakura to show up at Kakashi's place with a tub of hot wax and a razor and say: "What's it gonna be, pervert?")

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Total word.

Sakura: I hear it helps with length.

Kakashi: LENGTH IS NOT A PROBLEM!

Also, that icon is awesome.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

Now, I was recently reading an article in Cosmopolitan that talked about this - that more and more women are removing all the hair from their genitals as well as from legs and underarms.

Personally, this bothers me.

I have no problem with keeping that area ...tidy, shall we say, but deliberately making a grown woman look more childish in order to look more desirable? Yeah. That dives into our whole culture of 'young is better' and wanting child-women and subtextual pedophilia.

Eh, this is one of those areas where context and motivation make a huge difference. Trimming/shaving/waxing for some folks is pretty much a fashion thing they do for themselves -- they don't like the look of hair sticking out around the edges of their undies or bathing suits. For some folks, as mentioned, it's a matter of comfort and/or cleanliness, and for some it's a matter of consideration for sex partners -- and this *can* apply to both men and women: while it's rather more of an issue when going down on girls due to the anatomy, guys who have a lot of hair can also lead to the oh-so-fun hair stuck in one's teeth, tickling one's nose, and so forth. But the last point that I haven't seen anyone mention, forgive me if this is TMI time here, is that shaving can actually be *pleasurable* for the shavee. Freshly bared skin can be just exquisitely sensitive, and all the usual stimuli feel quite different and somewhat more intense. (And if one shaves rather than waxing or using depilatories, some partners may actually enjoy the feeling of slight stubble, although that is of course very very much a YMMV situation.) Everyone talks about horrific itching, but really, in my experience that can be greatly minimized by keeping the skin exfoliated and moisturized, and it's less and less of an issue with repetition.

As for the eroticization of a pre-pubescent appearance, well, that varies. If you take someone with a mature, womanly figure, she's not going to suddenly look like a pre-teen just because she shaves her pubis bare; she's going to look like an adult woman who just happens not to have pubic hair. So while on the one hand I get twitchy when I see kids like the average SA forum goon going on and on about the grossness of women who don't look like airbrushed centerfolds, I don't necessarily associate that attitude with a sort of semi-pedophilia; that seems more tied in to the whole dissociation from natural variation in body types beyond the limited acceptable range for model/actress types. And in a bedroom context, well, I wouldn't necessarily associate anything creepy to someone with a preference for shaved partners, unless they were also showing a strong pattern of picking women whose height, build, lack of curves, etc. all contributed to making them look underage. *shrugs*

(Now, all that said, given the Kakashi/Sakura age difference, and some of the other fic triggers you mention, yeah, I can definitely see contexts where a shaving request could very easily come across as squicky in this pairing. If it's presented as being all about his pleasure and she gets nothing out of it, not even a tit-for-tat "well, why don't you do --- to be fair?", that would definitely get me rolling my eyes too.)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Context and motivation DO make a huge difference in this situation - and I think keeping that area trim and going completely bare also have different connotations.

And I have never heard that it makes that area more sensitive, so, thank for the information.

(Now, all that said, given the Kakashi/Sakura age difference, and some of the other fic triggers you mention, yeah, I can definitely see contexts where a shaving request could very easily come across as squicky in this pairing. If it's presented as being all about his pleasure and she gets nothing out of it, not even a tit-for-tat "well, why don't you do --- to be fair?", that would definitely get me rolling my eyes too.)

Uh-huh. Plus the fact that with the age difference, Sakura's body type, the mentor/student history, and the fact that it's ALWAYS at Kakashi's instigation.... it goes to a very squicky place very quickly, in my head.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

Yeah, if all of those stories, fic after fic, are having Kakashi being the one to instigate it, and not for any other reason than he likes the way it looks, and Sakura's not getting anything out of it for herself...ewwww. And also, makes me wonder if any of the authors have ever tried it for themselves, or if they just picked up on the idea 'cause they've seen it in other fics or porn? Bleah. In my mind, at least, Kakashi would be enough of a well-read (and possibly quite experienced) perv to know that it could be about much more than just the visuals, and would be careful to present it that way because he'd damn well be AWARE of the potential squickiness of their age difference in the first place...

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Total word.

And also, knowing Sakura - she would not be playing the reluctant lover, even if that was what she was feeling. She'd be too insecure about her own inexperience and not scaring him off to be like, 'hey, that doesn't sound fun.' imho, at least.

Kakashi: are you sure you want to?

Sakura: Of course I do! I've always wanted to try that thing with the red thread, my medic uniform, and three carrots!

Kakashi: Oh-kay. *pause* ...and after that, there's this thing with the bunny and the trampoline.

Sakura: I'm game!

Kakashi: Okay, now I know you're lying.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

*sporfle*

You should write the rest of that scene. It could be awesomely funny. XD

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I should.

Sakura: Do mean I don't have to do that thing with the red thread, my medic uniform, and three carrots? *slumps in relief* Oh, thank god.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Because they think it's sexy?

[photoash.livejournal.com]

Question: do you have anywhere where you rec good Kakashi x Sakura? Because really there's such a derth :( I can only think of less than 10 authors who write stories for that pairing that are worth reading :) I'd love to find some recs for more :) as I'm primarily a yaoi girl and this is the only het I read.

(also I'm so curious what story are you talking about? I haven't encountered one where Kakashi asks her to shave down there O_O lol I guess i'm not reading enough?)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Look in my lj memories and my ff.net favorites, that's how I keep track of fic that's worth reading. And I'll occasionally do drive by recs on my journal (click the rec tags) but I don't think I've done many for Kakashi/Sakura yet, despite it being my OTP.

And I don't have the link for that fic - I've come across it in several stories, and it usually ends up being a sign that this fic is going to be one that I'm not going to bother saving links too.

[photoash.livejournal.com]

thanks for the info :) I'll have fun exploring!