When Did Bill Willingham Start Hating His Main Characters?

[redbrunja]

I just finished Fables volume 7, aka the last one the library has, and I'm left wondering,

When Did Bill Willingham Start Hating His Main Characters?

I mean, seriously, in the last two books we've spent more time with Rose Red than we have with Snow White and Bigby combined. I don't know about anyone else, but I'd really like to actually see the next stage of that relationship, or hell, just spent some time with the two people who spend five volumes kicking ass and taking names.

Also, Willingham has some really rigid ideas about gender.

Comments

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

According to him (I ranted a LOT during the period of over a year that it took to get between decent-sized appearances of Snow and Bigby; he eventually gave a response), Fables is not a comic that's supposed to focus on just those two characters. It's an ensemble book, and he decided to treat it as such.

See, it's stuff like this that fuels my statements of how I seem to like Fables better in theory than reality. The concept, and the characters we're introduced to are awesome -- Snow stood up to Bigby! She's the one you don't mess with, kicking ass and taking names and all that jazz. And then . . . geez. I was hoping for more of a Cordelia Vorkosigan type of mother.

I like to think that, if things had not gone so shittily, Bigby would be the type of father who's thrilled to become a stay-at-home dad and handle the diaper changes and everything so Snow could have time for herself.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I'm all for ensembles, but damn it, you don't just drop your two major pov characters in the middle of their arc! *doesn't want to imagine haveing the last two books tortorously strung out over a year.*

I'm begining to agree with you about theory versus reality. So does Snow become whimpy? I ask because I haven't seen her doing really, anything at all. Plus, what is there for her to really sink her teeth into up at the farm?

Bigby would have been an awesome, stay-at-home dad, and I think he could handle the chaos of raising children, especially that many children, a little more naturally than Snow would/will/did.

Also, have you notice how with couples there's always this strong 'you're female and I'm male so I'm the one who's badass'? Like how Beauty and Beast stepped into the exact same roles that Snow and Bigby had, with the wood folk it was the chick who stayed at home (pregnant to boot) while her husband killed people, and I'm sure I could think of more examples if I tried.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Exactly. If they'd been dropped after their relationship had reached a comfortable point -- "We're going to be quietly working through our relationship issues and be seen arm-in-arm in crowd scenes every so often" or something to that effect, I could deal. But GAH.

Not wimpy, really, but . . . we hardly ever see her. She never DOES anything. She only shows up every so often and doesn't have much of a role beyond mother. Which, given that she's got seven kids to look after -- well, six right now -- is somewhat understandable. But still.

Yep. He'd handle thier forms better than Snow. Not because Snow loves her kids any less because of what they look like, but because Snow sees herself as being entirely human and having her children turn out to be anything but entirely human is somewhat. . . off to her. Bigby has spent a few centuries in each form, and thus can adjust with more ease to kids who are a mix of the two.

Look at the first trade! Bigby admits that Snow could probably get away with murder if she wanted to, and there's never a hint of questioning her ability to do so. She's badass in her own right, she tries to offer backup for Bigby, and even in the third trade -- when she's just barely recovered from being shot in the head -- she takes out Goldilocks with a hatchet to the skull.

Further example: Any scene between Charming and another female character. None of them can resist him if he puts his mind to it, and morals, finances, and prior relationships have minimal impact on it.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

It makes me sad to hear Snow stops being kick-ass. I didn't mean to imply that she wasn't; she does a great job of being the rather ruthless power behind the throne, and I love when she brings the jaberwacky blade to help Bigby, knowing that she's not a good enough streight swordswoman to take him out without magical assistance. Snow=total win.

I don't even think that Bigby would handle the kids forms better (although he would) I just think he would be a more natural parent than Snow is.

I know. Charming drives me insane. Now that she's over him, Snow does a good job (better than Briar Rose) but it ticks me off that he's getting more screen time than Snow and not enough smack downs.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

She lead a battle while in her second trimester. There shouldn't be anything holding her back from being kickass.

Well, that, too. Wolves are one of the few species where the father plays a strong role in the children's lives, and Bigby's excited "I'm going to be a father?" while Snow was yelling at him makes it clear from the start he'll do anything he needs to for his kids.

*nod* I think Snow was burned more severely by him than Briar was; Briar is still willing to put up with him, and fell victim to his schmoozing, but Snow only went along with his plan because she knew she could pull one over on him.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

She lead a battle while in her second trimester

And was never hotter. If Cordelia can contiue to kick ass in male-dominated Barrayer, Snow should be able to do the same it a culture that already had her as second in command for the past two decades.

Yeah, I love how happy Bigby is, and how she's like 'don't you dare be happy about this.'

Also, with Snow, I think she's just a bit smarter than Brian. Very much 'burn me once' and all that. And I do think that Charming and Rose really hurt her badly.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I understand that she's got a limited ammount of control when she's -- understandably -- refusing to work for Charming, but maybe when the kids are older she can pass around a petition to call an election and finally get the position of power for herself.

*grin* An utterly adorable moment. Which, I suppose, is why Willingham had to crush it. Even Bujold works with the approach of "What is the worst possible thing I can do to this character?"

Most certainly. And since she didn't get the fairy blessing of wealth, she had to work harder for what she did get. Something like that will make you less naieve about the world.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I think Snow has more unoffical power than she realizes, especially now that Charming has throughly screwed the pooch after his election. I'm actually suprised that someone else hasn't called for an election, considering how there doesn't seem to be a time limit of when elections are called, and everybody's pissed at him.

Yeah, having to work hard for what you get does sharpen a persons skills, and I think that Snow had to deal with a lot of crap to get where she was. (e.g. Crane.)

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Very true; even Flycatcher voted for her as a write-in. She just needs to seize the opporunity when the right moment arrives, and she'll be back in the saddle. For now, I think the reason no one has voted him out is that no one really wants to take on the job. And they don't mind watching Charming screw himself over. Snow will need to focus on raising her kids for a while longer, at least until they're old enough to control thier shifting reliably and head to school. Until then, she wouldn't have enough time to take on running Fabletown again.

*nodnod* Crane, and before -- she's been working to build Fabletown for about 300 years, now. Every little annoyance that popped up over the years, she's had to deal with. And back in the Homelands, running from the Adversary. . .

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

You know, when I saw flycatcher write that, I had the vain and futile hope that more people would write her in and she would end up mayor.

But you're right, no one would want that job.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

I tried starting a campaign online. There was limited Fables discussion in those days, at least outside the DC forums (which are referred to variously as "Feral fandom" or "The horror! The horror!"), so it didn't really take off. I think Flycatcher actually had a stronger following . . . *sigh*

Back to the bit about Rose and Snow that I forgot to follow up on -- yeah, the whole situation back in the day was pretty shitty. The way I see it, Snow was too caught up in trying to stay alive/sane from the situation she was in to give her sister much thought; if she did think of Rose, it would be in thanks that her sister wasn't there to have to go through such a horrible situation. Rose, meanwhile, saw it as Snow going off on a fantastic adventure and leaving her behind. Snow was fairly traumatized by the situation, so probably didn't feel like sharing the details. And thus a misunderstanding lasting several centuries was forged.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

You know, I really want to hear what the Fables version of 'Snow White' is, because we've given hints that it wasn't a very pleasent place to be, and the lines about seven dwarfs being 'kinky' made me think Snow coming out of that situation tramatized isn't a stretch. Also, I think with Charming having her sister being the one cheating with Charming would be more upsetting than then his philandering.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

It was covered in 1001 Nights of Snowfall, though not directly. Mind if I spoil?

Yep. She'd be upset about his cheating no matter what, but to have her sister do it and show absolutely no remorse over it. . . owch.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Spoil away!

With her sister - I've very impressed that Snow tried as hard as she did to mend bridges with Red.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Well, while it wasn't specified directly, Snow had Charming teach her how to swordfight for the express purpose of killing all seven of the dwarves herself.

*nodnod* And when she told Rose she was forgiven, for Rose to turn it around and be upset that Snow was forgiving her for something she saw entirely as Snow's fault . . . ow.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Oh, god, poor Snow. I wonder what/if Bigby knows about that, and his response.

Yeah, I was kinda pissed at Rose for that one - not only to cheat on her sister but to blame her for it and then spend the next five centuries pissed off because big sis is more popular while doing nothing of worth herself... Rose really annoys me until she becomes responsible for the Farm.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

I think he does. He's had a few centuries to pick up on hints here and there, though I doubt she's told anyone directly. Noting that it especially pains her -- even if she doesn't show it -- when certain comments are made about the dwarfs, that sort of thing. He probably wouldn't bring it up, knowing that it'd only bring up painful memories for her.

The discussion of the OGN was very shippy; Charming wasn't very understanding about Snow's murdering streak, and Snow blames herself for the divorce in a way because, in a sense, she betrayed his trust by doing the killing behind his back. Had she married Bigby back then, he'd have known right away, given her more help with the lessons, and helped her cover her tracks. He'd understand that the reasons were something she would only discuss if she felt like it, and that revenge is something to be done personally.

Spending five centuries acting in a way that will most upset Snow -- Snow mostly being upset because she knew her sister could do better, and wanted the best for Rose? Geez. But yeah, she did improve at that point. It was great for the short time that they were working opposite each other -- Snow running Fabletown in the city, Rose in charge at the Farm. Sisters sharing what they had and all that.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

The discussion of the OGN was very shippy

When did this happen again? Because I don't remember it at all. But yes, Bigby is so perfect for Snow in so many ways.

Yeah, Rose Red struck me as really petty, and vindictive. I was almost sorry when she turned out to be alive in the first book, although that was a neat resolution to the 'murderer.' And when they were working as each others opposite numbers it was just great.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Ah, sorry -- the one on the Fables board. It's the best official discussion area for Fables out there (the alternative being the DC forums, this doesn't neccessarily say much, but the fact that I have mod control helps . . ), but I find myself seeking other areas to discuss Fables openly without having the urge to quietly censor my comments with the knowledge that Bill Willingham will be reading them. Otherwise he'll make a snide comment about beating a dead horse or something and . . . Fables is inherently awesome in theory. This much is true. Also that I babble.

A lot of ships out there go on about how 'Opposites attract'. Snow and Bigby aren't opposites; they're adjacent to each other. Not identical, but not polar. They work together well, they compliment each other. Bigby helps give Snow strength and Snow helps keep Bigby under control by making him want to be rather than forcing him in any way. That works really well, I have to say.

*nodnod* Though I wonder what she went through while Snow was off being traumatized. It's never even been hinted at.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Yeah, knowing the author is around kinda puts the kibosh on getting to rant the way you want to.

They're adjacent to each other That's a great way to describe it. By, when snow was off being tramatized, do you mean when Snow was with the dwarfs? Because, yeah, we haven't even gotten a hint of what happened back then.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Indeed. And if you get too uppity, he'll ban you. So I'm trying to walk the straight and narrow and work on fanfic, since the universe is more awesome than what he's doing with it.

And I think that that's the best type of relationship; If you're identical, you'll share strengths, but also share weaknesses, and the whole won't be greater than the sum of its parts. If you're complete opposites, there might be strong passion and so forth, but that's not the sort of relationship that lasts. To have someone who makes you stronger, and who is strengthened by you in turn . . . that's the best you can ask for.

Yep. Going through a psychologically taxing time will understandably make someone self-centered. If they both went through horrible times, neither one would have given too much thought to what the other went through, and if they both kept it to themselves, they'd both assume that the other had it far easier than they did.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

It was especially leave your self-centered when you have no idea anyone else suffered - in your head, you're the only victem in the whole world.

Oh, what program did you use to open that cbr program? Because my computer is clueless.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

CDisplay Comic Reader (http://www.geocities.com/davidayton/CDisplay). It's simple yet very nifty.

*nodnod* Trauma does that to you. I have a theory that Snow took the poisoned apple willingly from her stepmother; she knew who she was, had a decent idea of her intentions, and ate it anyway. She had been given no reason to hope of rescue, and thinking of the rest of the world would only leave her feeling even more bitter, and facing more dissapointment when no help came.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Oh -- and though my computer is still in for repairs, and thus all my files are (AGH) still inacessable, I came across a torrent for the OGN here (http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/1123001/3298184/). The site's good, and the seeding goes pretty quickly.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

What on earth is you computer getting, a complete bone marrow transplate? You must be going insane without your computer (or at least I would be.)

Thanks for the link, by the way, the torrent's downloading nice and quick.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

*mourns* The hard drive is dying. The news came in this morning. They're going to recover as much data as they can, though. I'll let you know if I can get it.

Also? Dialup SUCKS.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

things of dial up. *wimphers* *has totally been spoiled by high speed internet.*

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

So have I. I was thinking of downloading OpenOffice, since that's the program I'm used to using for writing fic on, and that's what I'll need to open my old files if/when they're recovered. 98MB never looked so intimidating.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Oh, ouch. I remember when it took 1-2 hours to download a movie trailers and then I got high speed internet and was like - my god, you can see it buffering (actually, when I first found out about online trailers, I thought you had to keep hitting the play button to get it to load - I think I spent an entire evening reading a book and clicking on the play button to watch the trailer for lord of the rings. *was once a complete neyophte.*)

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Yeah. If you try to do anything else while something's downloading -- or uploading -- it prevents you from so much as checking your email while it's at it. *sigh* Don't worry, we all went through newbie phases. Back in '99, I hadn't even grasped the concept of usernames on a message board and accidentally used someone else's because I thought it was cool.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Glad I'm not the only one who was a moron when she was first leaning the computer.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Everyone does it at some point, but most people deny it. Usually because they abandoned their first usernames at some point. Trial and error is the only way you can really improve, in the areas of the internet that you can't pick up from some instruction manual.

Also: I like the new layout! Though the long threads get incredibly narrow.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I learned more from trail and error, as well as having someone super good with compters in the whole, then I ever did from a book. Just the nature of the game.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

And yes, killed the old user names is one way to keep your new rep nice and clean.

I wonder if I can find a way to fix the narrow threads....

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Hm. Well, I'm sticking with clicking the 'View the thread starting from this comment' link in the notification, for now. That works.

[mzminola.livejournal.com]

On a similar vein in DeathNote, you might want to look at this (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/51205173/?qo=11&q=by%3Asilentreaper&qh=sort%3Atime+-in%3Ascraps), about gender roles.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Go Matsuda. (Also, this would be funnier if it weren't so tragically true. *sigh* I almost want to start a partership with someone who draws manga, and come up with awesome plotty stories that become insanely popular and have animes and liveaction movies with bad ass women.)

[mzminola.livejournal.com]

FMA's pretty decent...
Betcha we could get my brother to help.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

If I had watched any other series besides FMA when I was first getting into anime, I wouldn't still be watching. After Sailor Moon and Pokemon, which annoyed me at 10 with their females, I watched FMA and was like, 'my god! Strong competent women are all over the place!' Then I discovered that FMA was the exception rather than the rule. I still say I'm a fan of animes (i.e. some in particular) instead of a fan of anime, as in the genre in general.

[mzminola.livejournal.com]

I'm a fan of animes (i.e. some in particular) instead of a fan of anime, as in the genre in general.
Good way of putting it.
Sailor Moon and Pokemon...I think I saw one episode of the latter, some years ago. I did, very briefly, collect the cards. They were cute.

Aside from Speed Racer, the first anime I remember watching was about a...vampire princess? Most of the characters where women/girls. There were a lot of flashbacks, and I had no idea what was going on. Don't think I saw all of it, and I don't remember the name.

Millenium Actress was really good. "How to tell an Japanese Epic without actually telling one."

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

The cards were cute. The show itself, less so.

Millenium Actress is really, really good, and I desperately want to watch it again and show it to my mother. I loved all the flashes of the stories, and the ending was expectional- I love how Chiyoko's last line totally validates her whole life, and turns what could have been another lovestruck girl who lives her whole life for someone else into a statement of empancipation.

[mzminola.livejournal.com]

Mum says it was Vampire Princess Miyu!

Loveless has a nice bunch of character with depth.

Yay Chiyoko!

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Maybe this summer I'll snag Loveless from you. If that's okay.

[mzminola.livejournal.com]

Sadly, I do not have Loveless. But hireadd does!

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Of course, the friendly neighborhood crack dealer! I should have known!