redbrunja | Drive-By Update

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Drive-By Update

It is clearly the final month of school; I'm stressed, my to-do list needs two sticky notes to get everything on it, etc.

So if I haven't replied to your comment, it's probably because you wrote something that will take me more than two seconds to respond to; don't worry, I'll respond. Just... not right away.

~~~

Secondly, the latest fandom_secrets post was so incredibly wank-tastic and troll worthy, that it deserves it's own WTF commentary. I'm not going to go into details, except that I have something brief to say about the Sasuke/Sakura/Hinata/Naruto (not in the fun orgy way) secret, since people on my flist are already talking about it:

1.) Sasuke/Sakura and Hinata/Naruto ARE NOT correlated variables: one can happen without the other.

2.) Stepping back from the details of the pairings themselves (since I think everyon already knows my opinion on that), wouldn't it be incredibly problematic if they both happened? Doesn't that send a horrible message to both girls and boys about how girls should just endlessly pursue the object of their desire? And boys should just go 'oh, okay' regardless of who THEY want to be with, because those girls spend so much energy on them? It takes (or it SHOULD) two to tango and neither Sasuke nor Naruto has shown that they are romantically interested in Sakura and Hinata, respectively. Which leads me to point three:

3.) Kishimoto is not writing a romantic adventure manga. Arguing about which pairing will be canon at this time is pointless because Kishimoto has not given us ANYTHING CLOSE to a clear canon signal about what relationships will end up being canon (one-sided crush does not equal 'will be canon'). This is not Avatar: we don't know how Team 7's romantic lives will work out and it's actually somewhat probable with Kishimoto's emphasis on nakama that we WILL NOT get a bunch of pairings in the epilogue (please god).

~~~

Thirdly, I watched Star Trek on Sunday and it was the most awesome movie I have seen since Iron Man. Longer post to follow... sooner or later.

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Am I the only one who thinks that NONE of these pairings will become canon? It's a shonen manga! No one hooks up in shonen! Especially given how Kishimoto has really dropped all the romancey stuff lately, what little there was to begin with.

NO WAIII. NAGATO/KONAN IS JUST GETTING MORE AND MORE CANON WITH EVERY PASSING CHAPTER. */flames*

WELL THEY WERE PRETTY MUCH ALWAYS CANON SO I DIDN'T THINK TO MENTION THEM. :P

Yeah, while it sucks massively that Konan is now being used for damsel in distress crap, at least I'm slightly consoled by the fact that her sexual desires seem pretty validated. SHE GETS WHAT SHE WANTS... i.e. her own BONDAGE DOLL. YEYEYYEEYEY.

i.e. her own BONDAGE DOLL.

AHAHAHA OUR SHIP IS SO WEIRD. <333333

THAT IS TOTALLY NOT AN ICON I WOULD EXPECT YOU TO USE!

EVIL IS SEXY, YO. XD

ALSO THE BEAT OF THE MUSIC I'M LISTENING TO IS EXACTLY IN SYNC WITH THIS ICON RIGHT NOW. LOOOOL

LOLOL.

God I hope so. Because Kishimoto's writing in general leads me to predict a Rowling-esque ending.

D: Anything but that! I didn't mind it in Harry Potter, for various reasons, but in Naruto it would just fail.

It really bugged me in HP, and I think it would bug me a lot more in Naruto.

I hate this argument with a burning passion, so I'm turning it right back at you:

If that's how it works, what would it mean if NaruSaku's canon? That it doesn't matter if both girls' feelings have been shown as much stronger than one male's crush, his is still far more important, for no clear reason besides the fact that "hero deserves vagina of choice, while girls are silly and don't understand their own emotions"? That their happiness (and yes, a girl's happiness relying on the guy they like IS lame, but it's obviously important to both of them) is meaningless compared to a guy deciding he "sort of likes" a girl in a chapter three, and never pursuing it seriously since, aside from trying to trick her into liking him? Has he ever even thought of her in any context besides "she's cute" or "let's get Sasuke back"?

Sakura and Hinata's feelings for Sasuke and Naruto have been a driving force of their development, whereas Naruto's crush on Sakura is nonexistant when she's fighting Sasori alone and only matters when all is well and done. Compare this to Sakura, who ran in to help Sasuke during the Forest of Death, and Hinata, who was willing to give her life to keep him safe, and even all the MANY times Sakura's tried to stop Naruto from turning into Kyuubi.

Naruto LIKES Sakura, that can't be argued. But that's about it. He thinks she's cute, and doesn't tend to notice if she's upset. He can comfort her, but never in any way aside from "I'll get Sasuke back". He's had more of a meaningful relationship with Gaara or Jiraiya, and definitely Sasuke. He seems to understand them, but he really doesn't seem to understand Sakura. So, why is it that he automatically is entitled to her vagina?

Even if Sakura no longer romantically cares for Sasuke, what about Hinata? How would that narratively make sense? "Sorry, even if you knew he had potential since the beginning and Sakura didn't see it until the last minute, and you even had the courage to admit it before she even realized she liked him, you're still awkward and 'not normal' and didn't stand out as much as she did, so too bad"? It's not as if it's impossible for Naruto to ever like Hinata. He even says the reason he likes Sakura is because he understands her need to be accepted, which Hinata has in a way that's FAR more similiar to his situation. Unlike Hinata who downright loves him, he seems to have little more than a fidgety crush on Sakura where he can't even have a conversation with her without trying to hit on her.

In addition, it would be all too easy for NaruSaku to be used as an excuse for all of Sakura's development and goals are thrown aside for the sake of her becoming a trophy girlfriend, a "prize" for how far he's gotten. It wouldn't matter if she'd liked someone else, and those feelings evolved from a childish crush into something more meaningful. It also wouldn't matter that she's ridiculously dismissive of him, which Naruto puts him with probably only because that's how he's USED to being treated, and has had a shitty enough life and low enough self esteem that he probably thinks it's impossible for a girl to want anything to do with him. It'd be throwing away greater developments and pushing aside Sakura's endearingly fiery personality just so Naruto can be comforted by boobies. Her and Hinata's goals would be meaningless compared to the might of one male hero's libido.

Obviously, I'm not saying the opposite is true, and that Naruto and Sasuke should become the FEMALE characters' brainwashed lovemonkeys (though, with this manga, that's impossible anyway, since Vagina Is Inferior When Compared To Awesome Male Development). But Sasuke doesn't hate Sakura. He acknowledged how she felt, and that he was too broken to return it, or ANY feelings. However, you'd be dead wrong if you think he's going to spend his entire life like this, you're missing an important theme of this manga. Additionally, Naruto could do a lot better with someone who appreciates him, since he's been pushed around his whole life - it's not as if he deserves that in a relationship, or, as many NaruSaku fans argue, he's so ridiculous and stupid that he'd get nowhere without someone to physically beat sense into him (seriously, of all the times she's gotten mad has he ever once deserved it)?

Finally, your argument would be somewhat valid if Sakura and Hinata's love was portrayed as nothing but childish, and something they must get over to be "good, obedient women", which it hasn't. Even if the fans hate Sakura for not loving someone who isn't "nice" or "deserves to be liked" like Naruto (because people can totally help things like that, I guess), she's never been shown to regret it. Hinata's love for Naruto actually inspired her and helped her become stronger, while Sakura's for Sasuke is what got her to finally wake up and realize she has to be stronger. This isn't a series that goes "how dare you love him, you foolish girl". The goodbye scene was voted as the most touching scene in part one by a landside, and nothing about Hinata's confession was shown with anything other than affection and pride. THEIR emotions are serious. Naruto's for Sakura, frankly, aren't. So why is he superior to both of them combined?

Ummm.... I'm a little confused about what you're arguing about. My point was that at this we haven't seen enough MUTAL INTEREST between any of the couples mentioned (Sakura/Sasuke, Hinata/Naruto, Sakura/Naruto) for us to be able to go 'this is the couple that is going to be canon.'

"Sorry, even if you knew he had potential since the beginning and Sakura didn't see it until the last minute, and you even had the courage to admit it before she even realized she liked him, you're still awkward and 'not normal' and didn't stand out as much as she did, so too bad"?

How about, 'just because you really, really like someone that DOESN'T mean that they will automatically like you back.' That's what I'm arguing against here; that knowing one person's feelings means that you know the other one, or the other person is required to reciprocate.

Honestly, there are aspects of Naruto/Hinata that I think are cute - but for it to be a decently done romance, we need to see him discover feelings for her.

Naruto's for Sakura, frankly, aren't. So why is he superior to both of them combined?

Two things: first of all, I'm not saying Naruto's feelings count more. Secondly, I think it's a really questionable assertion to say 'x loves y' more that 'y loves z'. It's the kind of thing that you can argue about for ages and not change anyone's mind and not get anywhere.

I say this not as a Naruto/Sakura fan in much capacity (I'm pretty meh about it, but I'm not against it), but at least Naruto respects Sakura. Sasuke cared about her to some extent, I think that's fair to say, but he never respected her. Never once. And that's a deal breaker for me, with that ship. And at this point, with the way Sasuke's character development is going, I think we'd be lucky to get a Sasuke who would even try to make it up to his teammates for running out on them--he's never once expressed any kind of guilt about that--much less one who would be in a place to have a stable, functional romantic relationship with anyone. He is still a messed up kid, even if he isn't evil incarnate.

Honestly, I'm not here to argue the merits of SasuSaku versus NaruSaku, because I don't really ship either and I don't care. It's just that, with Sasuke in particular, there's a whole lot of issues to be worked out before he'd be capable of maintaining any kind of romance, and I don't think this manga is going to. That's not really the focus. There's a part of me that doubts that any of Team 7 is going to be in a relationship canonically by the end of the series, but if there is, I doubt Sasuke's going to be involved. That boy's got too many problems.

Er... I don't think Red was saying that NaruSaku should become canon, just that SasuSaku/NaruHina shouldn't. AFAIK Red only ships NaruSaku as the lesser of three evils - she's all about the Kakashi/Sakura and Sai/Sakura.

I've not even touched the Fandom Secrets wankfest, though I may look into it when I don't already have a headache, but I will say I think I'm kind of in the middle on this one. On the one hand? I think series which end everything with various characters pairing off (Digimon, Harry Potter) tend to, well... have shitty endings that don't ring true. And given the way Naruto is already written, I could unfortunately see this happening.

On the other hand? I do actually think a woman pursuing/achieving her interests should be empowering/encouraged by the narrative, even if those interests are romantic in nature. I don't like the message that, oh, she should just put her sexual desires aside because LOL NARUTO'S SEXUAL DESIRES 4 SASUKE MATTAR SOOO MUCH MOAR -- well, okay, so the narrative says that's a brotherly relationship, but I mean, the whole series centers on a guy pursuing the guy he's interested in, platonic or not! And then we're told girls should just get over it if they have feelings like that? I don't know. I think that's potentially an even more toxic message about the importance of male desires v. female desires.

I think series which end everything with various characters pairing off (Digimon, Harry Potter) tend to, well... have shitty endings that don't ring true. And given the way Naruto is already written, I could unfortunately see this happening.

I totally agree with this. I have hope, but yeah, Kishimoto is not know for his amazing writing skillz.

I do actually think a woman pursuing/achieving her interests should be empowering/encouraged by the narrative, even if those interests are romantic in nature. I don't like the message that, oh, she should just put her sexual desires aside because LOL NARUTO'S SEXUAL DESIRES 4 SASUKE MATTAR SOOO MUCH MOAR

You have a good point about this. I'm more concerned with the narrative emphasis that there will be if BOTH Sasuke/Sakura AND Hinata/Naruto happen, you know? Because honestly, those girls did not have the healthiest behavior with regards to love-affairs, imho. And if BOTH happen, I think it will read as encouraging what can be looked at in some lights as very stalker-y behavior. I'm cool with one happening (say, Hinata/Naruto, because I have so many other, personal ymmv problems with Sasuke/Sakura) and then Sakura either getting together with Sai (leave me to my delusion) or the beloved Rory ending (Gilmore Girls reference, it's when the female says no to the relationship that will limit her and says yes to the whole wide world waiting for her).

And there's also the whole "It's okay if a guy treats you like crap and/or completely ignores you because if you endure that for long enough he'll finally return your feelings" thing that goes along with SasuSaku and NaruHina being the endgame ships.

That too.

I mean.... I don't want to get into which pairings I like because I'm trying to talk about more general theme and prediction and WHAT IS ACTUALLY WRITTEN IN THE MANGA but Sasuke and Sakura... kinda of had a really screwy relationship when they were kids, to the point that I can't look at future fic/prediction for them and NOT see Sakura muzzling herself a bit and Sasuke not realizing what he has.

With NaruHina, I'm personally not a major shipper or anything, but I'd argue maybe he's just never really looked at her in that light? To my mind, that's not the same as rejecting someone. I think your eyes can open to a person if you realize they are a romantic option. Maybe this is just me over-relating to my own life, but I've had several instances where I didn't really consider someone in *that* way, then the light-bulb kind of went off all at once, only to find out they reciprocated. Of course, it's not as though this happens in every instance.

I agree with that actually, which is one reason I wouldn't mind it happening.

I totally know what you mean about ymmv with SasuSaku. Like, I know SasuSaku shippers who explain why they like it, so I can see the appeal of the idea of Sasuke ultimately coming around and Sakura . . . I don't know. Changing because of what she went through and growing and then the ship ultimately overcoming everything, but there are elements of the way that the two were portrayed that I just, gah, can't quite get past.

Specifically, I don't like the fact that the narrative would sometimes seem to mock/degrade Sakura for her interest in Sasuke, or imply it was weak and that she needed to get over it (I think I saw someone saying in an interview that Kishi had even intended this to be a character flaw/weakness of Sakura's), but then also treat it as something serious and sad. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. I get that a pairing can transcend how the narrative handles it, but that still really bothers me.

Plus, it would seem that the implication is strongly that Sakura is not as interested anymore, though it's hard to be certain.

Now, Naruto/Hinata, I agree with you about. I'm not personally a huge, huge shipper, but Hinata's desires don't seem as . . . scorned, by the narrative? They do seem to be treated as positive, as

cherryfruit said, and I get the sense that Kishimoto has a certain kind of fondness for Hinata. Although she's not been developed much, her arc has been very sympathetic. I guess, while I have a hard time supporting any main pairing becoming canon due to the wankfest it'd cause, a certain part of me does want NaruHina to become canon, just because it'd be such a validation of Hinata's feelings, and honestly, Naruto simply hasn't really considered Hinata, as of yet. If he looked in her direction, well, who knows?

Plus, it would seem that the implication is strongly that Sakura is not as interested anymore, though it's hard to be certain.

This is a large reason why I really, really don't want them to get together. Because she and Naruto are in the exact same place with Sasuke, and I love how she was all 'I'll save Sasuke for you!' and... I just feel like putting them in a relationship would cause that to be lose. I want the manga to end with Team 7 bffs, not romantic, you know?

I guess, while I have a hard time supporting any main pairing becoming canon due to the wankfest it'd cause, a certain part of me does want NaruHina to become canon, just because it'd be such a validation of Hinata's feelings, and honestly, Naruto simply hasn't really considered Hinata, as of yet. If he looked in her direction, well, who knows?

That's one of the reason's I'm fond of Hinata/Naruto (besides the fact that Hinata deserves whatever she wants - which is a bad reason - and it not involving Sasuke -slightly better reasoning) is that Naruto is oblivious that I think it would take something very big to get him to think about ANYONE in a romantic way. So, if he came back from chatting with Pain and was like, 'yo, baby,' I wouldn't have any complaints.

Sakura/Sasuke and Hinata/Naruto aren't necessarily correlated values, but given Kishi's love for neat endings...I honestly think it's likely that if one happens, the other will as well. Sadly. But I really hope there are no pairings at the end, seriously. I'll have to take a vacation from the internet due to shipping insanity if Kishimoto pairs them off.

And yeah...I'm with you on #2. I hate the idea of both these girls getting rewarded at the end with the affection of guys who have mistreated/ignored them throughout the series. Not what I consider a romantic ending. And it's not because I hate Naruto and Sasuke, but because I hate that particular ideal - that the way to true love is being loyal to your significant other no matter what happens/how they treat you. Nice thought, but...not so much. Especially if it's only the girls who get their romantic happiness that way. I would especially hate it if the couples are shoved together in a Harry Potter style epilogue without showing WHY or HOW it came to be.

Sakura ending up with Naruto is, in my opinion, slightly less crazy-making, but not much. I don't want him to have, like, 'earned' her by becoming the STRONGEST NINJA EVER, and I'm afraid Kishi will frame it that way if it happens. And then that leaves Hinata alone and unhappy ~~and ripe for Neji to swoop in~~ and that's no good either.

NAKAMA, Kishi. GO NAKAMA.

PS - I started watching Avatar, and it's really, really addictive.

but given Kishi's love for neat endings...I honestly think it's likely that if one happens, the other will as well. Sadly

This is true. I have to admit, one of the reasons I could handle Sakura/Naruto is that there have been hints she could think/thinks about him in that way, and it would totally cock!block Sasuke/Sakura.

I hate the idea of both these girls getting rewarded at the end with the affection of guys who have mistreated/ignored them throughout the series. Not what I consider a romantic ending. And it's not because I hate Naruto and Sasuke, but because I hate that particular ideal - that the way to true love is being loyal to your significant other no matter what happens/how they treat you. Nice thought, but...not so much. Especially if it's only the girls who get their romantic happiness that way.

Exactly! It comes across as giving such a gendered, negative message: just suck it up and don't take no for an answer and sooner or later you'll get rewarded. It's not quite that simple for Hinata/Naruto, given that Naruto has never seemed to REALIZE that Hinata likes him, and treated her nicely regardless, but Sasuke and Sakura? Not so much.

And then that leaves Hinata alone and unhappy and ripe for Neji to swoop in and that's no good either.

...wait a minute. Does this mean that if I asked really, really nicely there would be a possibility that I could get some Neji/Hinata written by the amazing

sowell?

Also, Avatar IS addicting. And so unbelievable good.

Edited 2009-05-13 02:23 (UTC)

I would LOVE to write some Neji/Hinata, but it seems a little daunting. The Hyuugas are hard nuts to crack, I think.

They are. Especially when you're writing two of them. I think it's easier when one of the people ISN'T speaking in three different kinds of subtext, you know?

This is a large reason why I really, really don't want them to get together. Because she and Naruto are in the exact same place with Sasuke, and I love how she was all 'I'll save Sasuke for you!' and... I just feel like putting them in a relationship would cause that to be lose. I want the manga to end with Team 7 bffs, not romantic, you know?

I agree completely with this.

I just find SasuSaku to be incredibly unhealthy; with NaruHina, Naruto is oblivious of Hinata's romantic feelings, yet even so he's always had a positive, supportive relationship with her as a friend. Sasuke, on the other hand, is openly dismissive of Sakura when they're younger, and the reader is more or less encouraged to empathize with Sasuke during those moments. This just bugs me tremendously. It's a major problem for SasuSaku that Kishimoto had intended Sakura's obsessive interest in Sasuke to be a character flaw, as hieronymousb says. I think it does send a negative message if they end up together, as it seems to imply that Sakura's personal growth throughout the series is really just all about making her 'good enough' for Sasuke's standards (this was one thing that bugged me about Harry/Ginny in HP as well, that Ginny was transformed into practically a Mary Sue to be 'worthy' of Harry.)

...And well, I adore SaiSaku, even if it probably won't happen. ;)

*nods*

I know why people ship Sasuke/Sakura, but it just fails for me, for all the reasons you've mentioned. And yeah, Sakura dating Sasuke at this point WOULD feel a lot like her character growth was so she'd deserve him - whereas right now, HE should work to deserved HER.

As Sai/Sakura is going to break my heart - it's plausible enough that I can go 'maybe...' yet is totally going to not happen. *sad face*

SAI/SAKURA FTW!!!!!!!!!! ~~oh hai thar~~

I hope no pairings happen in Naruto canon so I can continue writing fanfiction for whichever ones I like. -_- I mean, you know what I ship, for god's sake. If I wanted a manga where I root for a ship until it happens, I'll go pick up something with "shoujo" on the front of it. And even then, I'll crackship random characters anyway.

I really don't see why it's so important for pairings to ever become canon anyway. Is your imagination so barren that you can't imagine how a romantic scene would go between two characters without the medium of the series' creator, fandom?

[/rant]

I totally agree.

Plus, I have been burned by pairings I love becoming canon that I totally don't understand most of fandoms OMG IT MUST BE CANON ATTITUDE!

I totally don't understand most of fandoms OMG IT MUST BE CANON ATTITUDE!

I tend to assume that people like that are new in fandom and haven't yet witnessed what happens when things become canon in a way you don't like.

Oh, what innocent souls. They'll learn. Oh, will they learn.

Lol, in a lot of my fandoms, the pairings I've liked have been so UN-canon that I had no hope nor thought of them hooking up in the canon, but I will say, when I've actually wanted a pairing to become canon, it's usually because half of it obviously desires half the other half, and I want to see that character's desires validated. [Pain/Konan; NaruHina, to some extent. Not SasuSaku, for other reasons, but if Sasuke had seemed more open to it?]

In a way, it's almost easier for me (emotionally, I mean) to ship pairings where there's NO CHANCE it could happen, because if I ship something like NaruHina, where half of it ACTUALLY DOES want the other half in an obvious way, it can be sort of heart-breaking when it's denied to them. So that's personally why I sometimes have the desire to see things become canon.

In a way, it's almost easier for me (emotionally, I mean) to ship pairings where there's NO CHANCE it could happen, because if I ship something like NaruHina, where half of it ACTUALLY DOES want the other half in an obvious way, it can be sort of heart-breaking when it's denied to them.

Exactly. It's the hope that a pairing I like will get together being dashed that really kills me, and then while I understand the validation of having a pairing made canon, I have too many ships that I've loved until they took that step, and then I hated them.

In a way, it's almost easier for me (emotionally, I mean) to ship pairings where there's NO CHANCE it could happen

Basically, yeah, I rarely ship pairings anymore that have any chance of becoming canon for this reason alone.

*jumping in*

Crackship territory is the place to be! :)

Also, sometimes the creator just plain flubs a pairing, and those are the times I wish a pairing wasn't canon.

Also, sometimes the creator just plain flubs a pairing, and those are the times I wish a pairing wasn't canon.

I have been burned by this before.

I really don't see why it's so important for pairings to ever become canon anyway. Is your imagination so barren that you can't imagine how a romantic scene would go between two characters without the medium of the series' creator, fandom?

WORLDS OF THIS. Jeez, man. I mean, sometimes it's nice to have some validation from the narrative, but sometimes it's not nice. I really feel that a person has only dipped their toes into the world of shipping if canon, to them, is the be all and end all.

I know, right? Sometimes I like a pairing and pray it doesn't become canon because of the possibility of being disappointed by its execution.

Plus, I have been burned by pairings I love becoming canon that I totally don't understand most of fandoms OMG IT MUST BE CANON ATTITUDE!

OMG. SAME HERE.
As I do ship NaruSaku, pairing wars and blah blah blah just literally burn me out. Hell, the Naruto fandom itself burns me out. I mean, at this point, I almost don't care whether NaruSaku becomes canon or not. @_@ ~~Maybe crack pairings are the way to go... hmmmm.~~ But, really, it'll all just go to hell whether pairings happen or not. :/

I only care about Naruto/Sakura becoming canon because it means that Sasuke/Sakura won't, honestly.

Er, wow, that secret. Sasuke/Sakura is about fifty different shades of problematic, whereas Naruto/Hinata is, like, only five or so. I never really understand why people find a need to pair these two, because each of them are about two completely separate things. Each relationship would be completely different! I guess it ties into a need to make sure everyone gets their happy ending and make it all nice and neat, without any hurt feelings, but I feel no such need. In my opinion, some things would work and other things wouldn't.

Besides, I'm really starting to think that there aren't going to be any definitive endgame ships.

*nods* Yeah, Kishimoto likes tying things up neatly, but they really aren't automatically linked.

Personally, I really REALLY hope there aren't any ending ships, but that feels like too good of a writing for Kishimoto.

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