I Don't Want To Know What I'm Capable Of

[redbrunja]

So, the combination of reading Side Jobs while my mom is reading Dragon Bones made me realize another one of my bulletproof kinks: people who are LEGITIMATELY* afraid of what they're capable of and struggle with where their moral lines are.

Examples would be: Harry  Dresden; Ward of Hurog; Alexandra Udinov, daughter of Nikolai Udinov (BANG. BANG.) (I'm on the fence about The Doctor.)

What do you think of this trope? Who are your favorite characters who embody it? Tell me in the comments.

*By which I mean, it's not just that these characters have moral qualms but have to actively safeguard themselves against being as bad as the people they're fighting. So I would argue that Sarah Coner wouldn't apply but Raylan Givens is SO MUCH THIS. And yes, I have noticed that it is a VERY male-dominated trope.

Comments

[anat-astarte.livejournal.com]

people who are LEGITIMATELY* afraid of what they're capable of and struggle with where their moral lines are.

I've always loved this trope. I can't think of any character that I know would embody it though, since they always seem to cross the line for some necessary evil or other :D

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I think ACTUALLY DOING BAD THINGS is a key part of this trope. Like, Harry Dresden has tortured people before. Frankly, if they're not either doing bad things for good reasons or skirting REALLY FREAKING CLOSE it doesn't feel like a legit struggle to me.

[anat-astarte.livejournal.com]

:D :D :D

Well then, Scar from FMA and Hei from Darker Than Black would be my choices!

[anat-astarte.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, and maybe Victoria Seras from Hellsing :D

[keirelle.livejournal.com]

John Mitchell from Being Human. He is all about trying to not be as bad as he could be. It's in his vampiric nature to kill as much as possible, but he's constantly struggling to not be that person.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, that's a good example.

[darkeyedwolf.livejournal.com]

XENA.

All others are pale imitations!

[birdsarecalling.livejournal.com]

The Doctor is tough. It's clear that he hates himself for some of the things he's done, but he seems too accustomed to his own power to be really afraid of it.

As far as characters who embody this trope, I'm really liking the magician Anders, from the game Dragon Age 2.

In the DA universe, mages are vulnerable to possession by powerful spirits that live in the collective unconscious, most of which are nasty "demons" that embody things like lust, rage, and hunger. This means that everyone else is terrified of mages (not without good reason) and they get carted off to glorified prisons while they're still children.

Anders was one of those kids. In school/prison he trains to be a magic doctor. He escapes, and does what he needs to do to live free. But one day he runs across an unusual type of spirit -- a spirit of justice, rather than baser human emotions. He decides to merge with it in order to gain the power to help his brethren, because he feels guilty about having only cared about his own survival.

Unfortunately, Anders' pent-up anger about the whole situation transforms the spirit into a spirit of vengeance. Anders immediately realizes that he's made a huge mistake, but can't do anything about it. He spends the next ten years desperately trying to be more of an activist than a terrorist... only to fail spectacularly, because in the end, he is what he is.

I like the tragedy of the whole thing. Plus the fact that it takes an empathetic (metaphorical) look at what might drive a person to terrorism, without excusing terrorist acts themselves.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj15x1oiLR1qc38deo1_500.jpg

That is a really good distinction. I think you hit the nail on the head.

And Dragon Age and Anders sound FASCINATING. A very interesting character and a great example of a story saying something relevant while also being an amazing story on it's own legs.

[mildmay.livejournal.com]

I think this is a tough trope to pull off without seeming preachy. I want to like it, but often don't because of the way the narrative is handled. I need to feel like the character(s) are honestly struggling and don't just BELIEVE they're capable of awful things but KNOW they are because they've actually done those terrible things. And I need the narrative to back off, and let me interpret the character and his or her morality, rather than shoving what's GOOD and what's BAD down my throat.

Kenshin from Rurouni Kenshin is probably still my favorite use of this trope, at least in the first couple of arcs. Though, to be fair, it's been years since I read or watched the series, so I might not feel as compelled by it as I did when I was younger. For example, it's shounen and I know it doesn't get quite as dark with his struggle as I might prefer it now. But I remember honestly feeling his struggle as someone who had killed extensively in a war at a young age and who never wanted to let himself return to that state of mind. And I also felt it was honestly HIS struggle for HIS reasons, rather than the narrative defining what's righteous and pushing him in a certain direction. So I think it was handled well considering the target demographic.

There's also Xena, who I think worked the trope pretty well for awhile, but only for the first couple of seasons, really. Once the writers started bringing in Christian mythology and themes into the series I very quickly got fed up. Which is unfortunate, in retrospect, because like you said it's usually a male dominated trope and it was nice to see it used with a female character.

[anat-astarte.livejournal.com]

Yes, excellent point about Xena. Although, one of the main running themes was Xena's redemption so I think it does make sense that eventually Xena would have had to move past the moral struggle, and thus, the trope, as the series progressed.

[mildmay.livejournal.com]

No, I love redemption story lines. Rurouni Kenshin is a ultimately a redemption story and he eventually starts to move past the trope of struggling with himself, too. Redemption wasn't my issue with Xena. What bothered me about Xena was that it got preachy with religion...specifically with the use of Christian themes. It was set in ancient Greece, Christianity was entirely unnecessary for her redemption (and don't even get me started on what they did to Callisto).

[anat-astarte.livejournal.com]

I love redemption stories too. I think I do remember a little about Rurouni Kenshin..

Yes, omg yes, I agree! That bothered me as well, my family found the history!warp hilarious (I think by then it was a matter of trying to figure out what to do with the series and leveling up the issues from a personal to a univeral level before wrapping up the series) but I watched the whole series faithfully until the end anyway and enjoyed those episodes for the costume designs and the surprise!AU factor. XD

I gotta say..I love the Eastern culture influence in the series.

Dear God...Callisto...

Nevertheless, Xena was an awesome character ♥

(I don't have any Xena icons, so here's a Wonder Woman one :D)

[mildmay.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I loved Xena and a lot of the other characters in the show. I continued watching it even after I started finding aspects of it offensive because I loved so many of the characters. I did finally quit around the last season, though. And the time warp actually bothered me a lot, I was just like "What is this, this doesn't even make sense."

But I think overall, it was a good show, and very feminist for the time (and, actually, I watched a bunch of episodes from the first couple of seasons again not long ago and thought it held up pretty well).

And Callisto is one of my favorite villains ever. She was crazy and evil and yet extremely well motivated and I thought she was given a lot of depth (by the actress if not by the writers). She was so amazing, but the way they handled her in season 5 bothered me SO MUCH because she had no agency in her own redemption. And I mean I wouldn't have minded a redemption story for her, but the way they actually did it just felt cheap.

[anat-astarte.livejournal.com]

I loved Callisto, particularly because she was the only villian who could stand toe to toe with Xena and not buckle like a infatuated war god. I agree that it was the actress who portrayed her so well that gave Callisto her character depth and not the writers. Yeah, Callisto's redepmtion was not among my favorite parts of the series, but I think that by then the whole arc was catering to something that was just too big to pull off well with that one scene.

If there was one itty bitty thing I would have changed about Callisto, it would have been the constant and extremely apparent psychological imbalance. I think that part of Callisto's character was wayyy overdone. Imagine how much more terrifying Callisto would have been if it was harder to predict when her insanity would manifest? XD

[mildmay.livejournal.com]

I think that aspect of Callisto's character would bother me more if it weren't for pretty much the entire series being overdone. I mean, most of the characters were over the top in some way. So I feel like she fit right in with that. If she'd been too subtle I'm not sure it would have worked as well.

[anat-astarte.livejournal.com]

Hmm..this is an excellent point!

[natural-blue-26.livejournal.com]

And Callisto is one of my favorite villains ever. She was crazy and evil and yet extremely well motivated and I thought she was given a lot of depth (by the actress if not by the writers).

Word. I adored Callisto as a kid- way more than any other villain on the show. Her back story was definitely the most heartfelt, or at least it resonated with me the best at the age I was...

[mildmay.livejournal.com]

Yeah, she was one of the first villains I really found both entertaining and compelling. She was one of the best parts of the show, really.

[natural-blue-26.livejournal.com]

I definitely prefer her almost all the other non-regular characters Aphrodite.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I need to feel like the character(s) are honestly struggling and don't just BELIEVE they're capable of awful things but KNOW they are because they've actually done those terrible things. And I need the narrative to back off, and let me interpret the character and his or her morality,

Agreed. One reason I think that Harry Dresden works so well for this is that he DOES do massively questionable things, is sometimes questioned by characters in text YET THE TEXT ITSELF is pretty much entirely supportive of him.

There's also Xena, who I think worked the trope pretty well for awhile, but only for the first couple of seasons, really. Once the writers started bringing in Christian mythology and themes into the series I very quickly got fed up. Which is unfortunate,

So unfortunate. My mom and I were SO disappointed with Xena when the writers started writing 'on the bad crack' as we phrased it. I have never even seen the last couple of seasons.

[mildmay.livejournal.com]

So unfortunate. My mom and I were SO disappointed with Xena when the writers started writing 'on the bad crack' as we phrased it. I have never even seen the last couple of seasons.

I think I watched quite a bit of season 5, but might have quit around the midseason break, because I don't think I saw the end of that season and I know I didn't watch season 6. Though I caught bits and pieces of a couple of episodes and facepalm'd a lot. It really is unfortunate because the first couple of seasons were so strong, but then all of a sudden it was like "wait, what are they doing?"

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Yeah... I wish American television didn't have such a push for more and longer seasons. So many shows would have been so much better and so much more consistent if creators could and did go 'we have a one-season/two season/three season story' and just left it at that.

[mildmay.livejournal.com]

I agree. I think there have been quite a few shows that would have benefited from having a limited number of seasons or a limited number of episodes, rather than just dragging on and on.

[natural-blue-26.livejournal.com]

Kenshin from Rurouni Kenshin is probably still my favorite use of this trope, at least in the first couple of arcs.

And does he *ever* have to actually work at it- excellent example!

[mildmay.livejournal.com]

He did! I love how much he had to fight himself, especially in the Kyoto arc. It was great.

[sharkflip.livejournal.com]

I'm currently watching Angel. 'Nuff said.



Also, I am so embarrassingly late to this party.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

You're not late at all!

And Angel is an EXCELLENT example. Season two was basically ALL ABOUT THIS.

[chomiji]

Cho Hakkai.

[anat-astarte.livejournal.com]

*___*

OMG..I..*slaps self* YES!

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

*slaps face*

I can't believe I forgot to put Hakkai on here! (I did when I was mentally formulating this post, I swear.)

[meitah.livejournal.com]

Katniss. Especially as she sees Gale not even try to be better than the Capitol. And Katara, after she learns bloodbending. Willow Rosenberg, too, after season six. Faith starts to fall into this in the comics, but she's put on "clean up" duty, and kind of gave up bothering, since no one else did with her. And Eff Rothmer from Patricia Wrede's Thirteenth Child (which I seriously rec to you) plays with this one every which way.

There are probably a few more dangerous ladies that I can think of, but my brain's kind of dead atm.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm. Katniss doesn't quite work for me but Katara DEFINTELY does. Damn, I love 'The Puppetmaster.'

I'll have to check out The Thirteenth Child. I've heard mixed things.

[meitah.livejournal.com]

Thinking with a slightly clearer head, I can see how Katniss doesn't quite fit this trope. It get mentioned a bit, but there were other things to deal with in her story.

Thirteenth Child can be kind of hard to read, but part of that is because of how painfully right Wrede got the child's mindset. As the supposedly unlucky thirteenth child, Eff blames herself for everything. That gets old quickly, but it hits harder once you get that that's how kids actually think. When things go wrong, a child's response is to think that it's their fault, especially if they've been constantly told that they're the source of all evil, like Eff was. A lot of the plot of the book is her figuring out that she's not bad or even unlucky, and that she doesn't have to be afraid of herself.

For added bonus, the book has woolly mammoths and dragons. How much more awesome can it get?

[natural-blue-26.livejournal.com]

I think I remember *way back* you mentioned in passing that you had read the Animorphs series as a kid?

Because WOW did Rachel *ever* represent this trope- I don't know any other "kid" series at that point that actually takes the reader though a main character's (especially a girl's!) head as they slowly lose their grip of right and wrong because they start out willingly taking the morally ambiguous missions to keep everyone the fight with hands "clean"-- and then most distressingly to themselves, in Rachel's case, start *enjoying* being the one who deals the most damage to the enemy.

And then there's when she goes up against Taylor- who is essentially a Rachel lookalike who sold her family/brain/essentially her soul to regain her pretty face/social position (Seriously, Rachel's boyfriend who has just been tortured by Taylor actually calls Rachel the 'twilight' to Taylor's 'night' at the end of the first book Taylor is in)-- and David- who has all of her darker character flaws with none of her overwhelming sense of loyalty to those she loves. REALLY DARK ARCS IN THE SERIES.

Seriously, her ending is still one of the best done young-lit character deaths *ever* IMO.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I did read Animporphs as a kid and I was a HUGE Rachel fan. Sadly, I stopped reading them (library stopped having them, I kind of grew out of the age bracket) before all the epic Rachel thinks happened. I'd really like to go back and reread the series, though.

[natural-blue-26.livejournal.com]

And- with ironically perfect timing- Scholastic is releasing the series this year. (All kinds of rereads/character discussions/etc are planned at animorphs this summer if you would like to join us. Also of relavence to your interests- this (http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/marcomodel_animorphs/) which led to this (http://community.livejournal.com/racebending/301251.html) on racebending ,and resulted in this feedback from the authors (http://community.livejournal.com/animorphs/630376.html) and Scholastic (http://community.livejournal.com/animorphs/629584.html)- yay! Also this (http://community.livejournal.com/het_reccers/354593.html), because I'm deeply shameless and it might help you should you ever decide to skim around the fandom. ^_^)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the info! This summer I might see about getting these books from the library.

[despairinbeauty.livejournal.com]

Whoa. This. THIS. Loving this troupe, even though...yeah, it is a male-dominated trope. :/

So far...my favorite character that may embody this trait is Andrew "Ender" Wiggins (main character from Ender's Game). He knew that he understood how to fight in war well, but at the same time he hated himself for the ability. Unfortunately, he got sent into Battle School, even though it is the less of the two evils (the other choice was staying under his power-hungry brothers' control, which could lead to him having to fight his psychopathic brother's manipulations all the time). However, he got manipulated into having to fight from a corner at Battle School all the time, and even had to kill someone in order to survive, even though he felt that he could have not had to go to such dire measures. In the end, the government officials manipulated him into wiping out a major part of the alien society that he was trained to wage war against, and Ender pretty much had to escape and run away with his subordinates because of his ability to fight in war, as well as find ways to protect the last of the alien species he was once fighting against.

I admit, Ender's ability is probably more well-controlled than the other examples listed by everyone else here, so...yeah, he probably might not count. ^^;

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I remember reading Ender's game. The poor kid. And I would argue that he sort of skirts the trope given than none of the violence he committed was internally motivated, if you know what I mean? It was all stuff that other people asked him to do. He doesn't seem to struggle with NOT doing it, if you know what I mean.

[spankulert.livejournal.com]

(Snooping around since you seem to have friended me. Hi, btw)
Luther is a show I've just recently gotten into in a huge way. Brit show, so naturally they tease me with a six episode season. The main character Luther, played by Idris Elba, fits this trope nicely, me thinks. He's a detective that deals with the more grisly murders, and has been dipping in to that for too long now it seems.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Hi! I was looking for Haven icons and come across you journal; we share a lot of the same fandoms and you linked to some really great articles, so I thought it would behove me to friend you.

And thanks for the info about Luther; it'd heard people talking about it being a good show, but this is the first time I've learned about the premise.