No Homo (Subtext Is Not Representation)

[redbrunja]

So, a couple of things showed up at the same time in my fannish life that I want to talk about. First, I learned about Ginnifer Goodwin's comment that Swan Queen was never going to happen because Once Upon A Time is a "family show", I was listening to femmeslash for fans show on Subtext 101,

and then I read this article, Why Embracing Slash Is Good For Everybody.

Let me bottom line it.

SUBTEXT IS NOT FUCKING REPRESENTATION.

ABC is not going to write Swan Queen (or ANY homosexual romance in their show about true love and blood family) because they are not going to risk offending viewers.

RDJ's Sherlock Holmes was never going to make out with John Watson because the studio isn't going to risk offending viewers.

Trust me, studios are already "embracing slash" in their 100% mercenary way, which is by showing deep, complex, meaningful and nuanced relationships between TWO WHITE DUDES without ever having to commit to actually writing homosexual characters.

That's what all those buddy cop shows and bromance movies are all about.

And the result of this, the part that really HITS ME WHERE I LIVE, is that "embracing slash" MEANS THROWING THE FUCKING FEMALE CHARACTERS THAT I LOVE UNDER THE BUS.

Do you know what it looks like when a show feeds the slashers? It looks like fucking Supernatural, where every goddamn awesome good/neutral/evil lady winds up dead.

The reason that there is not a gay Avenger is because MARVEL STUDIOS DIDN'T HAVE THE BALLS TO WRITE ANY OF THE AVENGERS AS GAY.

DO YOU KNOW WHY THERE ISN'T A BLACK WIDOW MOVIE ALREADY IN PRE-PRODUCTION? BECAUSE HOLLYWOOD DOESN'T THINK A WOMAN CAN HEADLINE A MOVIE.

And none of that is fucking okay.

The mainstream media is throwing scraps of representation at the audience and some people are pretending that it's enough. It's fucking not, and honestly, to me personally, it feels like a slap in the face.

Stop pretending to be inclusive of homosexuality and fucking be inclusive of homosexuality.

Realize that audiences can handle and fucking love movies with female/poc/homosexual (or all of the above) leads and film them.

Comments

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Ugh. The whole "gay fans aren't hurting anyone so just let them have their slash" tone to that article is really gross. Like, we can have our own happy little straight people land and they will go away if we just "allow" them to use their own freaking imaginations?

And yes, I agree that bromance is getting way overdone and I would like to see a movie that has more than one lady at a time in it.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

"gay fans aren't hurting anyone so just let them have their slash" tone to that article is really gross. Like, we can have our own happy little straight people land and they will go away if we just "allow" them to use their own freaking imaginations?

Pretty much.

Like, I'm thrilled that people are reacting positively to fandom, but reacting positively to fandom is NOT the same thing as writing progressive stories.

[qualapec.livejournal.com]

I do think there's something to be said for queer people reclaiming a part of culture/subculture where they feel represented and comfortable. Even if it has its roots in homophobia/queerbaiting, queer people should be allowed to re-appropriate the imagery of their oppression without being shamed for it. However, giving queer people this kind of, "Subtext is ENOUGH isn't it? Why do you need any more than that?" spiel is extremely disrespectful. Just because people find representation despite your bullshit writing doesn't mean your writing doesn't need to not be bullshit.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

I absolutely think people should be able to write and enjoy slash, and I don't have a problem with bromance in and of itself. I just objected to the "I guess we'll let you have your slash" tone of the article. Also I agree with redbrunja that bromance and slash seem to be way more prevalent than and often happen to the exclusion of narratives that support female characters.

And yes, the argument they were making that slash is cool because it gives gay people what they want but will never get--because we totes aren't going to get a gay Avenger, amirite?--is terrible. Not to mention it doesn't hold water. We've got an Asian lady Watson and a trans* Ms. Hudson and people are watching the heck out of that show....

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

the argument they were making that slash is cool because it gives gay people what they want but will never get--because we totes aren't going to get a gay Avenger, amirite?--is terrible.

I really wanted to slap somebody for that dammed tone they had about it.

Not to mention it doesn't hold water. We've got an Asian lady Watson and a trans* Ms. Hudson and people are watching the heck out of that show....

Exactly. And if they're not going to write homosexual characters because they don't want to risk losing money, just fucking SAY that. Don't pretend like you're doing something progressive or edgy.

[qualapec.livejournal.com]

Agreed 100%. What I was trying to say is that while it is the prerogative of queer people to find representation in the subculture, it's not enough, and telling marginalized groups they don't deserve more is a hell of a copout.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Yes to both. *nods*

(and Karen Gillan ♥)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I do think there's something to be said for queer people reclaiming a part of culture/subculture where they feel represented and comfortable. Even if it has its roots in homophobia/queerbaiting

I am all for reclaiming media and writing what you'd LIKE to see, but my problem is I feel like people started slashing, creators discovered the slash, and then went 'we'll bait you, isn't that enough?'

Just because people find representation despite your bullshit writing doesn't mean your writing doesn't need to not be bullshit.

10000x this.

[qualapec.livejournal.com]

I am all for reclaiming media and writing what you'd LIKE to see, but my problem is I feel like people started slashing, creators discovered the slash, and then went 'we'll bait you, isn't that enough?'

Oh definitely, and it sucks doubly because then it becomes a homophobic symbol based around something that queer people find some scrap of representation in.

/ And honestly, I'm not even talking about straight girls shipping slash, since that's its own mess of misogyny and appropriation of queer symbols that can have way more of an impact than "what you like and don't like", and I say that as a straight slash shipper. I mostly just wanted to address that there are queer people who find representation in fandom despite shitty source material and despite straight slash shippers stomping all over their sexuality. However, there are also queer people (queer women especially) that don't feel the slightest bit represented by fandom because of the fixation on straight white dudes. While I do think it has value in discussions about female sexuality, whether it's really representation is iffy at best, and I think a discussion that queer people should be given the floor on.

Basically there are huge existing problems and queerbaiting only compounds them.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I mostly just wanted to address that there are queer people who find representation in fandom despite shitty source material and despite straight slash shippers stomping all over their sexuality. However, there are also queer people (queer women especially) that don't feel the slightest bit represented by fandom because of the fixation on straight white dudes.

Exactly. And interestingly enough, in my subjective and non scientific observation, I've noticed a lot of queer ladies who ship femmeslash, which is the corner of fandom that gets the LEAST amount of attention.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

And here I was assuming that Regina/Emma would never be canon 'cause Foe Yay rarely takes that path. But then, I'm Canadian, where they torture femslashers by having the lesbian get a girlfriend to stand in the way of their OTP.

I am a bit surprised about Mulan and Aurora who were doing the whole Xena/Gabrielle thing.

*points and laughs for having dropped the show ages ago, then returns to whimpering over Betty/Kate*

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

But then, I'm Canadian, where they torture femslashers by having the lesbian get a girlfriend to stand in the way of their OTP.

What is this magical land?

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

I do recall telling you months ago that Bomb Girls was worth watching . . . though the fandom is full of traitors.

Imagine if Emma started dating, I dunno, one of the awesome ladies from The Twelve Huntsmen, and then half the Swan Queen shippers jumped ship to root for them instead, apparently not caring about Regina.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Yep, as I've mentioned, I've given Bomb Girls a shot before.

Imagine if Emma started dating, I dunno, one of the awesome ladies from The Twelve Huntsmen, and then half the Swan Queen shippers jumped ship to root for them instead, apparently not caring about Regina.

That must be really frustrating.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

The lesbian has a sassy straight friend! People can sleep around with no slut shaming except by asshole characters, and even that is mostly 'cause it's the 40s.

But Kate, poor Kate, my woobie with shit to sort through, they want to doom her to a life of heterosexuality with her beard.

[meitah.livejournal.com]

Fun fact- DC and Warner Bros have been going back an forth about a Wonder Woman movie. Current feeling is that it'll never happen, because they don't have the balls to do it.

At least we can take solace in the new Sailor Moon series coming out this summer.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I've been hearing rumors about a Wonder Woman movie for, I kid you not, about ten years now.

At least we can take solace in the new Sailor Moon series coming out this summer.

I actually really hated Sailor Moon as a kid, so this news doesn't actually fill me with joy.

[meitah.livejournal.com]

Really? Qualapec and I have been rewatching it, and it's amazing. Literally all of the women on the show are effective individuals, and the person with the least agency is the damsel in distress boyfriend. Also, one of the scouts was genderqueer, before that was a recognized thing.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Yep. When I was watching it as a kid I found the main character MASSIVELY annoying. I don't know what my opinion about it would be now.

[mistaria.livejournal.com]

Here fucking here, Red.

In a fitting coincidence the top secret on fandom secrets today was about someone wishing for another show like Xena. Sometimes I swear the 90s were more progressive than things are now (probably has to do with the economy).

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I swear the 90s were more progressive than things are now

In some ways they really, really were.

[phemyscira.livejournal.com]

It was certainly a lot less harder to get POC onto television back then. There were dozens of television shows with an entirely POC cast but now you're lucky if you can find a show like that in Western television that doesn't reduce their characters to stereotypes. :/

[qualapec.livejournal.com]

Amen.

That article was written by people who clearly don't understand the slash community, primarily that most slash is written by straight girls and it's dominated 99% by straight white dudes. While that does say some interesting things about how female sexuality expresses itself in the subculture, I don't think that counts as representation in the slightest, since it ultimately doesn't matter for those people one way or another, because they're pretty much promised that their sexuality (presumed hetero) is always going to be represented in mass media. It won't always be represented well, but the fact remains that media is full of straight people. As I said above, I think it's the prerogative of queer people to find representation within that subculture, but it's not anywhere near good enough. Saying people should settle for subtext is like relegating them to Tantalus-status which is not okay.

And the result of this, the part that really HITS ME WHERE I LIVE, is that "embracing slash" MEANS THROWING THE FUCKING FEMALE CHARACTERS THAT I LOVE UNDER THE BUS.

Exactly. Because there's so much misogyny in bromanceish shows, slashers reflect the misogyny, which in turn is reflected in the show when they look at what they think fans want. It's A VICIOUS CYCLE.

And it's the same basic mentality where they think women should just be happy to have a female supporting character that does things and doesn't die, the idea that women actually want women to be the hero of the story doesn't ever fucking occur to them, because they think throwing us a bone is enough. Same goes for POC.

I also found this interesting a nice and fairly balanced meta on why women get so much hate in fandom (http://aiffe.tumblr.com/post/43660300604/for-all-the-women-i-have-loved-who-were-dragged-through). I'll admit, I liked this one especially because it addressed that there's more than one cause for the trend, which is something I've felt for a long time

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Because there's so much misogyny in bromanceish shows, slashers reflect the misogyny, which in turn is reflected in the show when they look at what they think fans want. It's A VICIOUS CYCLE.

It really is.

And it's the same basic mentality where they think women should just be happy to have a female supporting character that does things and doesn't die, the idea that women actually want women to be the hero of the story doesn't ever fucking occur to them, because they think throwing us a bone is enough. Same goes for POC.

Preach.

I also found this interesting a nice and fairly balanced meta on why women get so much hate in fandom. I'll admit, I liked this one especially because it addressed that there's more than one cause for the trend, which is something I've felt for a long time

Oh, the meta is A+.

[lady-with-cats.livejournal.com]

ugh yes! and the worst part is people actually equating slash with real representation! no, just, no, no, no. and all that "family friendly" stuff is such bullshit. f/f or m/m is just as family friendly as het romance, wth. if a couple can make out in a "family friendly" show (which certainly has happened; i would argue we've even seen het sex on ouat), i don't see why the gender of the people in question suddenly raises questions about age appropriateness (or whatever "family friendly" means).

and the worst part is when lack of representation comes down to the wire, queer ladies get sent right down to the end of the representation line. :( (and that's not even getting in woc!) why does 1 person who isn't a straight-white-male have to fill a quota? why can't we ask for more. why can't we demand more without being told to pipe down and stop ruining the fun? we should expect more from our media. i don't think it's okay anymore to just accept that things will never change or that talking about this stuff or demanding it won't "do anything". (speaking generally, not at you specifically!)

(wow that turned into a rant, sorry!)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

no, just, no, no, no. and all that "family friendly" stuff is such bullshit. f/f or m/m is just as family friendly as het romance, wth. if a couple can make out in a "family friendly" show (which certainly has happened; i would argue we've even seen het sex on ouat),

Oh, totally. "family friend" is code for = het sexuality is normal and gay relationships are inherently kinkier and should only be shown on cable.

[phemyscira.livejournal.com]

*STANDS UP AND APPLAUDS THIS ENTIRE POST.*

Yes, yes, yes, thank you. It's like everyone's for slash, but only if it's mildly hinted at and excludes all the female characters. I WANT TO SEE REALLY HAPPY GAY COUPLES IN AN AWESOME RELATIONSHIP, WITH AWESOME FEMALE FRIENDS THAT ARE LOVED BY THE COUPLE AND THE SHOW'S WRITERS, WHY IS THAT SO HARD?

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I WANT TO SEE REALLY HAPPY GAY COUPLES IN AN AWESOME RELATIONSHIP, WITH AWESOME FEMALE FRIENDS THAT ARE LOVED BY THE COUPLE AND THE SHOW'S WRITERS, WHY IS THAT SO HARD?

I want to see awesome ladies being the main characters and having a diverse set of love interests! (Including other ladies!)

[phemyscira.livejournal.com]

Yes, that would be good as well. :D

Does Legend of the Seeker do that? I'm sorry, all I know from the show is what little I've seen from tumblr and your lj. Even though I've been wanting to watch it for ages. I believe one of the main heroines is gay, yes?

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

One of the main heroines is bisexual, both of the main heroines are epically badass, and their growing friendship is a HUGE part of season two.

[phemyscira.livejournal.com]

Sounds like my cup of tea.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

i want to see queer ladies falling in love and riding into battle and ruling over lands and being crowned queen and having torrid affairs and forming lifelong connections and not being shamed for any of it.

This, in particular, is so damn relevant to my interests.

[http://users.livejournal.com/brokenrecord__/]

ugh, everything in this post is so perfect and completely spot-on. I'm so constantly incredibly frustrated with people arguing that slash ships count as representation of queer characters and am also frustrated with how sexist it can get, and just... yeah, I really have nothing to add that you didn't say yourself, just wanted to echo your frustration!

[sugar-fey.livejournal.com]

Hi, I got linked here by latenightcuppa and have to say a mighty THIS. Subtext is not representation, and writing/reading slash fic is not activism.

And the result of this, the part that really HITS ME WHERE I LIVE, is that "embracing slash" MEANS THROWING THE FUCKING FEMALE CHARACTERS THAT I LOVE UNDER THE BUS.

YES, THANK YOU. I'm tired of female characters being bashed, and people who cry that they love slash saying "ew, no" about femslash. I'm always more interested in female characters, and I'm tired of fandom being such a white sausage fest. It particularly angers me when people use feminism (or rather, their warped idea of feminism) to justify erasing or bashing female characters.

I friended you, I hope you don't mind!

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

YES, THANK YOU. I'm tired of female characters being bashed, and people who cry that they love slash saying "ew, no" about femslash. I'm always more interested in female characters, and I'm tired of fandom being such a white sausage fest.

All the word in the world.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Even there's hatred toward female character because she get in way between two slash ship.

That's always so frustrating for me.