I've Got No Use For Innocence

[redbrunja]

(It was hard picking which ~provocative~ icon to use for this post, let me tell you.)

The combination of a conversation I was having with fairest1 and reading the first Psy-Changling book (Slave to Sensation, which I’d heard raves about and is not living up to the hype) reminded me that a lot of fandom and the larger cultural context (especially with romance novels) seems to think it’s just so. damn. sexy. to have a virgin heroine. And I am just 100% not on board with this trope. Just… no. It’s almost 2014, can we please, please, please stop with this.

I’m not even going to go into how virginity is a bullshit patriarchal and heteronormative construction (but it totally is, and the more you learn about how and why it was constructed and the very real consequences of that, the more horrifying it is), I am going to stick with the fact that I JUST DON’T FIND VIRGINITY SEXY.

I come to fandom and romance novels for entertaining, titillating fiction, and do you know what I find sexy? People who know what the fuck to do in bed. People who have previous sexual experiences (good and bad) that inform how they interact and what they feel about their current partner.

I am so not down with the whole virgin protag that I don’t even like the male subversion where he’s the virgin and she’s more experienced (those two Steve/Darcy fics, excluded, you know the ones what I’m talking about).

Comments

[sugar-fey.livejournal.com]

Preach! I confess to enjoying the odd ~sexual awakening~ storyline, but only if it's done in a sex positive way that doesn't infantilise the less experienced partner or fetishise virginity, because yeah, we don't need any more of that thanks. Especially the whole "I never had one sexual thought before I met you" thing, ick ick.

Are there any romance novels out there you recommend? I enjoy romance sometimes but it's difficult to find anything good.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

only if it's done in a sex positive way that doesn't infantilise the less experienced partner or fetishise virginity... Especially the whole "I never had one sexual thought before I met you" thing, ick ick.

Thiiiiis x infinity. I'm a virgin, but damn if I'm pure of mind! I don't mind reading romances where the chick's a virgin because I identify with that, but then it just grates on me how often the writers c/p the same tired scenario where the character's basically a nun with no idea of basic human anatomy and 'le gasp, what is this stirring in my nether regions, oh my!' and bleurgh.

I don't think I've found one romance novel yet where the heroine's a virgin who actually knows what body parts sex involves and it's ridiculous, especially when set in the modern day. What is the internet for?! (I want to go find that Harry Potter 'the internet is for porn' vid now, lol)

[sugar-fey.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I was reading smut and thinking about sex years before I actually had sex for the first time, and fandom (and romance novels)'s insistence that virginal heroines never have any sexual desire previously as well as never having had sex before is kinda creepy.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

I was reading romance novels at age 10, which makes it a little hilarious that I'm a 25yo virgin...maybe too much time thinking about it in theory took away the urge IRL. *g*

I could buy regency romance heroines being clueless virgins since sex ed and the interwebs weren't around in those days, but what gets my goat is how after the first encounter (which is 99% of the time a magical, transcendental and life-defining experience of pure sublime ecstasy), they're transformed from utter n00bs to experienced pros.

The authors want to have it both ways - get their virginity fetish on and then once that element's dispensed with, these chicks are raring to go and blindsiding the hero with their seductive techniques and even a little kinky and...not that I'm against this at all, obv, but it's so disingenuous to have the heroine go from zero to a hundred in a heartbeat.

Um, I can't find a way to articulate what it is that feels so wrong to me here, but there you go. I guess it seems like denying the women the ability to express or hell, simply experience desire prior to the hero unlocking her chastity belt and validating her character's right to feel and act on lust? But only with him, mind!

Like, god forbid her lips have touched another man's prior to Lord One-and-Only, Earl of True Love, entering her life, but once they've connected, then BAM, she instantly has all these years of entirely natural sexual needs that she's only now allowed to explore and the experience that would normally occur through previous romantic encounters, 'coz it's too boring for the author to work on their sex life realistically if the woman actually had no idea what she was doing as originally introduced. only acknowledging previous sexual encounters would make her a slut because she should've known she'd meet Mr Right at this appointed time and been 'saving herself' for him accordingly

IDK, IDK, what are words even.

[deathmallow.livejournal.com]

Word. And please add for widows, "My first husband was a lousy lover/gay/whatever" so they're either a virgin or still totally sexually clueless.

Because a.) God forbid she actually have experienced TRU LUV before the Earl of Romantic-Fuckingdale and b.) God forbid she ever have had a fulfilling sexual experience. Only the hero is allowed to give her that!

But yeah, suddenly after one experience she's revealed as startlingly passionate and sensual and a "sexpert".

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

And please add for widows, "My first husband was a lousy lover/gay/whatever" so they're either a virgin or still totally sexually clueless.

Oh, man, that trope makes me want to THROW THE BOOK AT A WALL. Because that is one of the BEST ways to have a historical romance heroine who knows about sex and authors will throw it away to worship at the alter of female virginity.

Because a.) God forbid she actually have experienced TRU LUV before the Earl of Romantic-Fuckingdale and b.) God forbid she ever have had a fulfilling sexual experience. Only the hero is allowed to give her that!

That's how she knows that his dick is the One True Dick.

[deathmallow.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. I mean, as I said below, I don't mind virginity--it's simply a state of being, and I think realistic sexual exploration could be pretty fucking hot. I just dislike it being fetishized and then suddenly once the hymen's no longer an issue, the heroine fucks like the porntastic version of the Energizer Bunny.

The One True Dick, as carried by the Fellowship of the Wang?

I think my "favorite" Regency nobility (seriously, FFS, I don't give a shit about dukes and earls, let's actually hear about some normal people in history with real problems rather than just whining about how this woman is such a slut and only chasing him for his money) was the "Duke of Bedwyn" and it's like BE MORE OBVIOUS THAT HE'S SUCH A STUD OK.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

The authors want to have it both ways - get their virginity fetish on and then once that element's dispensed with, these chicks are raring to go and blindsiding the hero with their seductive techniques and even a little kinky and...not that I'm against this at all, obv, but it's so disingenuous to have the heroine go from zero to a hundred in a heartbeat.

Agreed with this so damn hard.

Like, god forbid her lips have touched another man's prior to Lord One-and-Only, Earl of True Love, entering her life, but once they've connected, then BAM, she instantly has all these years of entirely natural sexual needs that she's only now allowed to explore and the experience that would normally occur through previous romantic encounters

Errrr, I hate this. It's so frustrating how dudes have TONS of sexual experience but freaking just forget it if you're a girl. No past relationships for you!

[just-shai.livejournal.com]

*cough* Sophie Jordan just wrote a FANTASTIC book just about this.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

Ooh, for real? Is it her latest book which afaict is Foreplay: The Ivy Chronicles? Brb, ordering it from the library...

[just-shai.livejournal.com]

That is indeed it.

[tigerpetals.livejournal.com]

YES FOREVER

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Oh, I have a TON.

Jennifer Crusie: Bet Me, Faking It, Agnes and the Hitman, Tell Me Lies.

Tessa Dare, A Lady By Midnight

Cecelia Grant, A Lady Awakened

Suzanne Brockmann, Hot Target.

I'd also suggest the Magic Bites series and On The Edge, both by Ilona Andrews.

[sharkflip.livejournal.com]

Placeholder comment to remind me to come back to this when my brain recovers from the hangover.

[sharkflip.livejournal.com]

First. Worst thing about Zutara fandom: Katara as blushing innocent virgin and Zuko as experienced seductive hedonist.

Just.

No.

NO.

One, way more IC to have Zuko as blushing virgin and Katara as seductive hedonist.

Two, BORING.

Three, NO.

Four: .... still hungover.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

One, way more IC to have Zuko as blushing virgin and Katara as seductive hedonist.

Two, BORING.

Three, NO.


Four: Still no.

[sharkflip.livejournal.com]

Yes, that. NO.

[mollivanders.livejournal.com]

Something I find most disturbing about the virginity trope is that it is often used in the context of making one's OTP their only sexual encounter (usually just for the woman). Like - are we going to pretend that Felicity has never had sex and her first sexual encounter is Oliver? (I haven't seen this particular example but I'm sure it's out there; I just have managed to skip past all the virginity centered fic for a long time). Seeing it with teenagers is more...understandable? realistic? but I still don't like it.

There is nothing wrong with virginity by itself - as a state of being, as a choice - but the way fandom interacts with it can be very, very gross.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Something I find most disturbing about the virginity trope is that it is often used in the context of making one's OTP their only sexual encounter (usually just for the woman). Like - are we going to pretend that Felicity has never had sex and her first sexual encounter is Oliver?

Exactly. I HATE when fandom does this and I am SURE that Oliver/Felicity fic exists. It just fetishizes the female's inexperience and has super gross connotation where it's fine if HE has a history of sexual experiences but she can't, she has to be pure.

There is nothing wrong with virginity by itself - as a state of being, as a choice - but the way fandom interacts with it can be very, very gross.

Word to the hundreth power.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

To be fair to Jane, her case doesn't appear to be viewed as virginity being ~sexy~ so much as another way that she's never really felt close to anyone (who is not now currently dead) pre-series. Though it might just be me 'cause I've never really seen it as sexy to have a character basically going "I only have a theoretical idea of what's supposed to happen now, this is horribly awkward."

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Though it might just be me 'cause I've never really seen it as sexy to have a character basically going "I only have a theoretical idea of what's supposed to happen now, this is horribly awkward."

Same, same. And I get so frustrated that it's always the girls who are inexperienced. Anyway, I guess I just am not a fan of virgins and could do with less of them in my fiction.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

I just see it as something that everyone needs to get through at some point in their lives (well, if they choose to have sex at all) and can just shrug it off. It's like seeing a character work in a shitty entry-level job, I suppose -- something that's just to be expected if you're reading a YA novel, for example, because not everyone gets that out of the way at a young age.

I recently discovered Courtney Milan, who wrote a couple where both were virgins(for reasons due more to deep-rooted psychological issues than morals) (and both were also perfectly capable of masturbating) and after a mutually awkward first time, the heroine went "Okay, I may only have experience doing this solo, but I don't think we did that right. Let's try again."

She's also written couples who were both experienced. One of which even used a condom, despite it being a historical romance.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I recently discovered Courtney Milan, who wrote a couple where both were virgins(for reasons due more to deep-rooted psychological issues than morals) (and both were also perfectly capable of masturbating) and after a mutually awkward first time, the heroine went "Okay, I may only have experience doing this solo, but I don't think we did that right. Let's try again."

She's also written couples who were both experienced. One of which even used a condom, despite it being a historical romance.

I am a big fan of Courtney Milan, partially for the reasons you listed. The story were they use a condom (which had, bonus, a not!virgin heroine!) A Kiss For Midwinter, is actually one of my favs of hers.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Post that might make you more sympathetic to Jane's deal (http://anonsally.tumblr.com/post/72843175316/episode-56-a-dlgheogndb); short version -- in the original book, Jane turned down Rochester because he told her about a few mistresses that he had who he assures her meant nothing to him. It's not out of morals that she turns him down but the fact that she becomes sympathetic toward his former mistresses and fears being added to the list.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I'm actually pretty sympathetic to Jane not wanting to sleep with Rochester, especially in the original novel, where I think her comparing herself with his past lovers is super-groundbreaking and says great things about Jane; my problem is fandom/romantic novels just fucking loving their virgin heroines and me, just about ready to rip my hair out about it.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah; I'll only defend Jane (or, well, the individual right to decide you're not into sex) rather than the systematic fondness of virginal heroines. Seriously, if it's done right, it should set off an embarrassment squick rather than some kind of virginity kink.

[empressearwig.livejournal.com]

I will state categorically if virgins are a turnoff for you that you should stop reading Psy-Changeling right now. A third of the population is a race that has turned off emotion and procreates via reproduction contracts. The series is a story of their collective reawakening which means EVERY psy character, male or female, is a virgin when they are introduced into the series/their romance.

(That aside, Slave to Sensation is a book that I liked much more on reread than I did on initial encounter. And the entire series, couples can be hit or miss, but the overall world building is great.)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I got halfway through Psy-Changling and I'm like, 'red, this is probably not the series for you.'

[eos-joy.livejournal.com]

Oh my goodness, I agree with this so fucking much! I can't even!

I have nothing against virgins (we are all one at some point, right? ^^) or virginity in general. They are a state of being, a state of mind, and there's nothing wrong with waiting for the right moment or the right person or the right reason. However, like you, I don't see why there's such a...kink(?) for virgin heroines. I think it is sexy to be with someone who knows what they're doing and has confidence…notice: this could apply to a virgin. I don't understand why virgins are portrayed as completely inexperienced or downright dumb when it comes to sex. Imagination and experience, virginity and exploration - they are not mutually exclusive.

Oh, and of course it absolutely outrages me when someone (usually a woman *blah*) has their worth or power somehow tied to or based on their virginity. *grrrr*

[deathmallow.livejournal.com]

I've got nothing against depicting virgins, because some people just want to wait on sex, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I agree with the idea that aside from historicals where being fucking clueless was pretty normal, that most virgins are unfamiliar with desire, anatomy, etc., is ridiculous. Chances are they've masturbated, and they've almost certainly had sexual dreams and the like. I'm OK with them putting fantasy into practice with that first partner and that being depicted as something special because yeah, that's the first time they've actually trusted someone enough to give in to those desires they've been keeping back. That can actually be pretty fucking hot, but that's sexy to me because of the sense of intimacy and trust in it. Unrealistically ignorant "hurrrdurrr I didn't know what sex was until I met you and because you touched my boobies now I cannot resist" is not.

Mostly I just want that clear sense of intimacy developing between my OTPs when it comes to their sexual progression through the story, and the confidence and ability to trust and talk to each other in bed, and that's something that doesn't depend on someone's level of sexual experience, or lack of it. So I'm fine with virgins and I'm fine with people with a lot of notches on their belt.

[tigerpetals.livejournal.com]

The virgin fetish is so creepy. And boring, and creepy sexist.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

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